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What is special about Christianity?

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User Info: dhalsimrocks

dhalsimrocks
4 months ago#91
OrangeWizard posted...


The whole point was to "prove" Satan was wrong. But it can't. God is incapable of proving himself to be anything.

How so? Did Jesus not remain loyal to god, never sinning, even while being tortured to death?.

Because God could have been manipulating everything the whole time to make sure Satan was proven wrong. As you said earlier, at the end of the day, you just have to believe that he didn't without any way to know for sure if you're right.

The best you can say is "Satan might be wrong." And if Satan is right, God's manipulation of events could be exactly the reason why, meaning Satan could be right and you'd have no way of knowing. Therefore it doesn't prove anything.

It's not so much "someone needs to be punished, I don't care who", it's "someone needs to succeed, I don't care who". I wouldn't say the "Jesus died in place of us" is wrong, it's just not how I would describe it.

So we are in fact operating on different definitions of "just".

Back to the murder analogy then.

John Doe commits a murder. His penalty is life in prison. John Q. Savior has never murdered in his life, proving that it can be done. He succeeded. So he goes to prison instead and John Doe goes free. But John Q. Savior also gets out three days later.

How is that just, just because Mr. Savior had managed not to murder anyone?
May all your disgraces be private

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
4 months ago#92
dhalsimrocks posted...

Because God could have been manipulating everything the whole time to make sure Satan was proven wrong. As you said earlier, at the end of the day, you just have to believe that he didn't without any way to know for sure if you're right.


Okay then. If we take the claims of an omnipotent, omniscient being at face value, then Satan is proven wrong. How's that?


Back to the murder analogy then.

John Doe commits a murder. His penalty is life in prison. John Q. Savior has never murdered in his life, proving that it can be done. He succeeded. So he goes to prison instead and John Doe goes free. But John Q. Savior also gets out three days later.

How is that just, just because Mr. Savior had managed not to murder anyone?


This isn't a very accurate analogy of my understanding of events. John Doe would have to be born in prison. Jesus didn't "go to prison", either. No judge ordered him to be punished in the place of Doe. Mr. Savior is tortured to death in an effort to get him to murder.

Jesus wasn't "punished by God" or anything, I think that's the part where we disconnect.

It would be more accurate to say:

Everyone on earth is, or will become, a murderer. An alien decides to blow up the planet because he knows that if humans continue to exist, they would just inevitably murder anyway, and none of them are any good.

Then John Q. Savior comes along and never murders, despite having ample motive, ability, and opportunity. The alien sees him and thinks "maybe humans aren't so bad after all", and decides against destroying the planet.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCevfumG9WSyr165n84HfwRQ

User Info: JDavidC

JDavidC
4 months ago#93
I don't see how the above is accurate, considering the alien in your analogy is God, and God would already know what humanity is and is not capable of, as he is omniscient.
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User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
4 months ago#94
JDavidC posted...
I don't see how the above is accurate, considering the alien in your analogy is God, and God would already know what humanity is and is not capable of, as he is omniscient.


What people are capable of doing, and what they actually do are two different things.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCevfumG9WSyr165n84HfwRQ

User Info: dhalsimrocks

dhalsimrocks
4 months ago#95
OrangeWizard posted...

Then John Q. Savior comes along and never murders, despite having ample motive, ability, and opportunity. The alien sees him and thinks "maybe humans aren't so bad after all", and decides against destroying the planet.

Where does justice come into play in this analogy? As well as John Q. Savior's death.
May all your disgraces be private

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
4 months ago#96
dhalsimrocks posted...
OrangeWizard posted...

Then John Q. Savior comes along and never murders, despite having ample motive, ability, and opportunity. The alien sees him and thinks "maybe humans aren't so bad after all", and decides against destroying the planet.

Where does justice come into play in this analogy? As well as John Q. Savior's death.


John Q. Savior was tortured to death in order to get him to murder. He resisted, and thus, died.

I've never said much about justice. I've only ever said "that would be unjust" in response to questions like "Why doesn't God just give everybody a free pass".

I don't think justice really applies here, other than collecting the proof one would use to decide the question of "Could Adam have done it?" Answering this question with a proven "yes", could be considered some form of justice, in that it exonerate's God's name.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCevfumG9WSyr165n84HfwRQ
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