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ATTN: OnceInALifetime

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User Info: chukie_sue

chukie_sue
7 years ago#1
I'll gonna respond here if you don't mind...

I take issue with this immensely. The standard of goodness is still there, it still comes from society, just not exclusively from religion. You are still responsible and still hold many responsibilities, just none that are religious in nature (and even then you can still volunteer with religious charities). There is still a point to life without religion, of course there is.

Unless there's some strange philosophy that judges one man as "higher" than another, any standard of "good" is completely subjective. I'm free to do as I please, and nobody has grounds to judge me for it. Just because a group of people (society) have a problem with lying doesn't make it any more wrong than telling the truth.

When I say there's no point, I don't mean you can't live your life in a way that accomplishes a certain purpose(s). I mean our existence is a complete accident. Our life is the result of a strange chain in events. The fact is that I'm not here for a reason, and nobody else is either.

Please don't equate being an atheist with those statements, because it's almost tragic how misguided that kind of thinking is. In fact believing that there isn't a heaven means you are MORE responsible, that you HAVE to be a better man, that the point of life is that much more meaningful, because we understand that once we and others pass on that's it.

You see, I'm having a hard time understanding how the point of life could possibly be meaningful when it can be different for everyone, and one person's point of life may directly conflict with another's.
A mighty hand, an outstretched arm - You are the God who saves, Deliverer Your name.

User Info: kozlo100

kozlo100
7 years ago#2
I'd like to jump in on this, if you don't mind.

I'm free to do as I please, and nobody has grounds to judge me for it.

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that you are free to do as you please, and everyone has the grounds to judge you for it. They can do that precisely because no one man is 'higher' than any other.
The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick

User Info: Faust_8

Faust_8
7 years ago#3
You think it's meaningless to find your own purpose? You want it just handed to you on a silver platter?

Some find earning things more meaningful than just being given them.

Also, things that acquire beauty/complexity all on their own can be just as awe-inspiring. Like the Grand Canyon. Nothing tried to form it. It was not the goal. It was just what the river did. And yet it's arguably one of the most beautiful places in the entire United States.

It's like...you look at the Grand Canyon or the stars and a myriad of other things and think..."wow, anything could have happened and we got THIS. Aimless forces crafted this, and now I'm here to appreciate it. Amazing!"
"We think the future that we will find together is greater than the assumptions of our past."

User Info: chukie_sue

chukie_sue
7 years ago#4

From: Faust_8 | #003
You think it's meaningless to find your own purpose?


Again, there is no real purpose. At best, I can say "my goal in life is to x" which doesn't actually have any magnitude on my life because there is no point to my existence.

Some find earning things more meaningful than just being given them.


I'm not sure what you mean here - earning a point if life?

Also, things that acquire beauty/complexity all on their own can be just as awe-inspiring. Like the Grand Canyon. Nothing tried to form it. It was not the goal. It was just what the river did. And yet it's arguably one of the most beautiful places in the entire United States.


I agree. But as for myself, a cognitive being with complex emotions and a wonderfully capable brain who longs for a purpose, that does bring comfort or whatever it was supposed to bring (as it pertains to my existence).

It's like...you look at the Grand Canyon or the stars and a myriad of other things and think..."wow, anything could have happened and we got THIS. Aimless forces crafted this, and now I'm here to appreciate it. Amazing!"


That's another thing I've been pondering lately - many make the claim God is/created a standard of beauty which we compare things to without realizing it. We examine a blade of grass and say meh while the Grand Canyon forces our jaw to drop. I wonder how man's similar opinions of beauty became so similar. But anyhoo, I must point out that I certainly realize what I've said here and in the previous topic does not apply to all atheists. But, it would to me.
A mighty hand, an outstretched arm - You are the God who saves, Deliverer Your name.

User Info: kozlo100

kozlo100
7 years ago#5
Again, there is no real purpose.

What property of a self-given purpose makes it unreal? Why does the property of being temporary or non-universal invalidate the reality of a purpose?

You can also flip it around and try to figure out why permanence and universality make a purpose to a life more valid or real.
The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication. -- Philip K. Dick

User Info: Faust_8

Faust_8
7 years ago#6
Money has no intrinsic point, purpose, or value. Mind sending some to me since it's so worthless?

Conclusion: subjective values can be just as important as objective ones.

We humans are just walking meat-and-water bags. Just a smart form of ape. In the grand scheme of things, we are nothing. However...humans matter to me.

And really, that's all that counts--if something matters to you, do you really need a second party to agree with you to validate it? Or rather, do you not trust yourself to make any sort of real judgment and thus have to abide by some seemingly objective stance on it?

Humans had morals before we invented your god and his so-called morals. Remember that. If we are operating under the assumption that atheism is correct, then we've been acting with our morals and our purpose throughout history, and we seem to be getting along fine.
"We think the future that we will find together is greater than the assumptions of our past."

User Info: Dagorha

Dagorha
7 years ago#7
Just to point out a few problems...

Unless there's some strange philosophy that judges one man as "higher" than another, any standard of "good" is completely subjective.

Ok first off, this is beyond awful reasoning. There are tons of people "higher" then other people in different fields. I know more about psychology then most people but that doesn't mean that it is a moral good to listen to me. There are tons of people who think they are good but we don't even agree with their definition of good. Why would God be exempt from this rule? Because he was here first? Because he is stronger? Because he is "higher"? Who is to judge that and if it were God then why is he the judge? If this were the case then anyone who was smarter, stronger, or here first would have moral imperative over those who weren't.

When I say there's no point, I don't mean you can't live your life in a way that accomplishes a certain purpose(s). I mean our existence is a complete accident. Our life is the result of a strange chain in events. The fact is that I'm not here for a reason, and nobody else is either.

To be blunt, God hasn't really given you a purpose either. I've yet to have most people agree on why God even created humans in the first place. Your life has no purpose even theologically. Life is inherently purposeless. You can have goals, and those goals can be those you give yourself or goals that others give you, bu that doesn't equate to purpose. You either give yourself purpose or you follow someone elses. You don't need god for either of that.

You see, I'm having a hard time understanding how the point of life could possibly be meaningful when it can be different for everyone, and one person's point of life may directly conflict with another's.

Why is it that all people suddenly have to have the same purpose? In fact, that would be awful. Which brings up another point... why does god hate individuality? Ah whatever... moving on. Why is being in conflict with others somehow negate meaning? What does those two have to do with one another?

We examine a blade of grass and say meh while the Grand Canyon forces our jaw to drop. I wonder how man's similar opinions of beauty became so similar.

We don't. Asthetics are extremely subjective. Nonetheless, to answer your question, we are attracted to novelty. There is only one grand canyon and there are quadrillion+ blades of grass. Why would we find something so common interesting unless we were a grass specialist. It has to do with how we construe the world

But, it would to me.

Here is the thing, if you ever became an atheist, it would be the same for you. I don't think you ever will and that's fine but you also should recognize that on the off chance you are still looking for meaning and become atheistic, i highly highly doubt that suddenly your quest for purpose would cease.
You don't get a gold star for being less bloody stupid than another bloody stupid person when you are still demonstrably bloody stupid. -the final bahamut

User Info: chukie_sue

chukie_sue
7 years ago#8

From: kozlo100 | #005
What property of a self-given purpose makes it unreal? Why does the property of being temporary or non-universal invalidate the reality of a purpose?


A self-given purpose can only be given after you've been born, it does not occupy the same "space" as a purpose given to you by your creator. When mankind came into existence, there was no point.

From: Faust_8 | #006
Money has no intrinsic point, purpose, or value. Mind sending some to me since it's so worthless?

Conclusion: subjective values can be just as important as objective ones.


This has not been my point. I stated morals and everything would be subjective, I never said they were insignificant (though obviously this causes all sorts of problems). But when one states that self assigned purposes are of the same significance as the one mentioned above, this is false.

Humans had morals before we invented your god and his so-called morals. Remember that. If we are operating under the assumption that atheism is correct, then we've been acting with our morals and our purpose throughout history, and we seem to be getting along fine.


I agree, but this isn't relevant. All I did was mention that nobody has any authority to condemn me for lying.

From: Dagorha | #007
Ok first off, this is beyond awful reasoning. There are tons of people "higher" then other people in different fields. I know more about psychology then most people but that doesn't mean that it is a moral good to listen to me. There are tons of people who think they are good but we don't even agree with their definition of good. Why would God be exempt from this rule? Because he was here first? Because he is stronger? Because he is "higher"? Who is to judge that and if it were God then why is he the judge? If this were the case then anyone who was smarter, stronger, or here first would have moral imperative over those who weren't.


For Jesus is considered worthy of more glory than Moses, just as the builder has more honor than the house. 4 Now every house is built by someone, but the One who built everything is God. (Heb3:3-4 HCSB) I'm going to argue why this is so because everyone already operates accordingly. Children are expected to submit to adults (in many cultures). Dog owners don't submit to the will of their dog when it wants to bark all day, etc. If God created people, unless you hold some strange Theology foreign to me, He did it for a purpose.
A mighty hand, an outstretched arm - You are the God who saves, Deliverer Your name.

User Info: chukie_sue

chukie_sue
7 years ago#9

To be blunt, God hasn't really given you a purpose either. I've yet to have most people agree on why God even created humans in the first place. Your life has no purpose even theologically.


Isaiah 43:1-7

1 But now, this is what the LORD says—
he who created you, Jacob,
he who formed you, Israel:
“Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have summoned you by name; you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters,
I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers,
they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire,
you will not be burned;
the flames will not set you ablaze.
3 For I am the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I give Egypt for your ransom,
Cush[a] and Seba in your stead.
4 Since you are precious and honored in my sight,
and because I love you,
I will give people in exchange for you,
nations in exchange for your life.
5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you;
I will bring your children from the east
and gather you from the west.
6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
and to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’
Bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the ends of the earth—
7 everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.”


That's the only verse to my knowledge that has broad application to many people. By implication, it can be concluded God made man with the intention having a mutual loving relationship. Then of course there are more specific callings. Paul for example was an appointed apostle (1 Cor 1:9) and apologist (Phil 1:16). Please don't start on how some would like to do whatever they please, that's not the point.

Why is it that all people suddenly have to have the same purpose?


I didn't say that.

why does god hate individuality?


This either. Christian Theology says quite the opposite, in fact,

Why is being in conflict with others somehow negate meaning? What does those two have to do with one another?


I didn't say it negated meaning. I suppose in context it looked like I did though, sorry. I brought that up to show the utter chaos we'd be left with.

We don't.


I haven't exactly been looking at statistics, but you'd say it isn't safe to assume that most peopple would conclude a tree looks more beautiful than a plain rock the same size?

Nonetheless, to answer your question, we are attracted to novelty


I guess I could take the question back further and ask why we're attracted to novelty, but when I said that stuff in the first place I was just running my mouth anyway so it's neither here nor there :/
A mighty hand, an outstretched arm - You are the God who saves, Deliverer Your name.

User Info: Faust_8

Faust_8
7 years ago#10
...Why can't we condemn you for lying? Are you saying just because I'm "equal" to you, I can't condemn anything anti-social that you do? (Or praise anything pro-social?)

Lying is a weird example though, since not all lies are bad.
"We think the future that we will find together is greater than the assumptions of our past."
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