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User Info: the_hedonist

the_hedonist
8 years ago#41
the final bahamut posted...
But this is quite obviously a flawed argument, namely because the lump of clay has no will or emotions or central nerveous system.

Sure, there's a difference between a human and a lump of clay. And I understand what differences are probably important to you (sentience, feeling, self-awareness, etc.), but why do those differences make a difference? What is your basis for making a moral judgment?

Furthermore it seems you're once again arguing - essentially - that God can be a d***bag if God so chooses, which seems to rather clash with the "God wants as many people as possible to be saved" thing which would result from the belief that God is omnibenevolent - should I take it that you think God isn't omnibenevolent?

God is omnibenevolent, but it's a circular argument for me. I judge goodness by God's standards. What is good is according to God's decree, and he says he is good, so he is.

In other words: "Yes, God does intentionally damn some people and bar them from ever receiving salvation through no actual fault of their own" Is this correct?

Close. But we still have responsibility for our actions. So I would take out " through no actual fault of their own." Regardless of whether God predestined me to choose to eat cereal instead of chocolate chip pancakes this morning, I still decided weighed the options myself and made the choice myself. In the same way, people still weigh the options and decide to make immoral decisions, and they have consciences, so they are held responsible.
Everything that doesn't have to do with elephants is irrelephant.
~The Christian Hedonist~

User Info: Ivashanko

Ivashanko
8 years ago#42
There is a variety of arguements for this. One is that man is so fallen that he requires the direct intervention of God the Father to be saved- hence, why Jesus cannot come, since 'faith' would be replaced by God's direct love.

Second, we could say that God, for whatever reason, truely does wish for humans to have faith in Him. If He does exist, He seems to have created the world in a manner that humans will never fully understand, and this could just be another one of the mysteries that we must struggle for without ever truely knowing the answer.

Thirdly, what would be the point? He is capable of saving men at will, even before they are born, and yet He choices not to- if Jesus came down, it would be a very similar phenomenon. (That one is similar to the second arguement).

When I started this post I had more arguements in my head, but I have since forgotten them. Hopefully I shall recall them soon.

User Info: gamesrgreat

gamesrgreat
8 years ago#43

From: Ivashanko | #042
There is a variety of arguements for this. One is that man is so fallen that he requires the direct intervention of God the Father to be saved- hence, why Jesus cannot come, since 'faith' would be replaced by God's direct love.


I don't understand

Second, we could say that God, for whatever reason, truely does wish for humans to have faith in Him. If He does exist, He seems to have created the world in a manner that humans will never fully understand, and this could just be another one of the mysteries that we must struggle for without ever truely knowing the answer.


Why was he cool showing himself all throughout the Bible?

Thirdly, what would be the point? He is capable of saving men at will, even before they are born, and yet He choices not to- if Jesus came down, it would be a very similar phenomenon. (That one is similar to the second arguement).


Then what was the point of the crucifixion and incarnation of Jesus? If he could just save anyone no matter what...
Cyclops has never beaten Wolverine
We Three Kings- The Miami Heat

User Info: Magyar15

Magyar15
8 years ago#44
"In other words: In order to show us that He isn't at our beck and call, God intentionally does things that are counter-productive to God's own goals? Because that's sort of what I'd expect from an angry, hen-pecked would-be king of his castle to do, not what I'd expect an all-wise God to do.

Or are you rather saying that while God wants everyone to be saved, He doesn't care about it to the level where He can be arsed to do something active for more than 33 years at a time? Because that's sort of ****ty from a being of unlimited power."


I honestly can say I can't know for sure, just that God, being an infinite being, has other reasons for how he does things. He doesn't just want us to end up going to heaven; he wants us to develop a relationship him in this life. Perhaps another reason we don't see as many miracles as we have in the past is to mold us and shape us in the here and now, partnering with him in saving those we love
A good man would prefer to be defeated than to defeat injustice by evil means - Sallust

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
8 years ago#45
Oh, so you've stopped replying to me in order to go after the easy targets?

Sour grapes, and all that, huh?

"OW is logical and consistent, my tricks won't work on him, I'll just call him stupid and move on"


Stay classy TFB
"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops

User Info: countzander

countzander
8 years ago#46
Did you honestly just say "My beliefs are silly and unreasonable when examined logically, therefore the only option for me is to accept them unquestionably" or did I miss something major?

The Biblical references.
Spirit can be understood only by spirit. Because we're born separated from God, in a spiritually dead state, natural reason alone is insufficient to embrace the Gospel. It's only after one has been regenerated that he can embrace Christianity, with the Holy Spirit's support.
Christians are still human though. God doesn't completely separate us from our natural selves. Doubt (natural) and faith (supernatural) tend to conflict with each other.


Which doesn't really fly since we know a multitude HAVE reached out and not been helped, so again, this God who - allegedly - WANTS you all to be saved isn't really doing much in this equation.


We also know another multitude who has reached out and been helped. Failure to find God is on a case by case basis, with reasons such as demands for evidence, sinful lifestyles, and an unwillingness to completely submit to God.

So God, an omnipotent and omnibenevolent creature, damned a few thousand souls in order to kickstart a religion? Because so far you've been saying there's is no salvation without faith and no faith with evidence, but the disciples were given evidence, so by your logic they can't have been saved.

Salvation is by faith, yes, but I never said it's impossible to be saved when presented evidence. Jesus acknowledged Thomas' salvation, even though the other apostles had believed solely by faith.

Because of faith. You can't have your logic and eat it too, y'know. Either faith is reason enough or it isn't. I mean: Why would I listen to you when all you do is going round saying "this dead guy is God, believe in him" over and over again? Where is the situation now different?

Even with the miracles and appearances, not everyone believed that Jesus was the Messiah. I agree that evidence makes belief a helluva lot easier, but it's not enough to find God.
The Resurrection of Jesus makes more sense via a supernatural resurrection than with a natural one, but it won't convince a skeptic. This is where faith comes into play.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/resurrec7.htm
http://www.riverpower.org/resurrection.htm
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5351

User Info: countzander

countzander
8 years ago#47
OrangeWizard posted...
Oh, so you've stopped replying to me in order to go after the easy targets?
Welcome to a message board.

User Info: Guide

Guide
8 years ago#48
Regardless of whether God predestined me to choose to eat cereal instead of chocolate chip pancakes this morning, I still decided weighed the options myself and made the choice myself. In the same way, people still weigh the options and decide to make immoral decisions, and they have consciences, so they are held responsible.

You weighed the options and made the choice because you were predestined to.
Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. -- Robert Heinlein
'Would have', not 'would of'.

User Info: Billy_Bob_Joe

Billy_Bob_Joe
8 years ago#49
We also know another multitude who has reached out and been helped. Failure to find God is on a case by case basis, with reasons such as demands for evidence, sinful lifestyles, and an unwillingness to completely submit to God.
So you're willing to assume that every person who has ever reached out to God but has not been helped was not worthy?
Have you ever seen Obama and Satan in the same place at the same time? I haven't! - skullmagic2
http://www.youtube.com/user/BillyBobJoeIsaac
the final bahamut 8 years ago#50
Sure, there's a difference between a human and a lump of clay. And I understand what differences are probably important to you (sentience, feeling, self-awareness, etc.), but why do those differences make a difference? What is your basis for making a moral judgment?

Because I can't hurt clay.

God is omnibenevolent, but it's a circular argument for me. I judge goodness by God's standards. What is good is according to God's decree, and he says he is good, so he is.

In other words: If it was shown to you that there was a sound scriptural basis for the Crusades or the Inquisition, you would think it was good if they being done again?


Close. But we still have responsibility for our actions. So I would take out " through no actual fault of their own." Regardless of whether God predestined me to choose to eat cereal instead of chocolate chip pancakes this morning, I still decided weighed the options myself and made the choice myself. In the same way, people still weigh the options and decide to make immoral decisions, and they have consciences, so they are held responsible.


I'm sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If God has predestined you to do something, then your choice is meaningless because you never really had a choice. God already rigged the game. You could no more choose differently than a river could choose whether to flow upstream or downstream. All you "decisions" are only so much play for the gallery

There is a variety of arguements for this. One is that man is so fallen that he requires the direct intervention of God the Father to be saved- hence, why Jesus cannot come, since 'faith' would be replaced by God's direct love.

So... God can't come to save us because it has to be God who saves us?
I'm sorry, but I REALLY do not get your point here.

Second, we could say that God, for whatever reason, truely does wish for humans to have faith in Him. If He does exist, He seems to have created the world in a manner that humans will never fully understand, and this could just be another one of the mysteries that we must struggle for without ever truely knowing the answer.

So basically "shut up and don't question"?

Thirdly, what would be the point? He is capable of saving men at will, even before they are born, and yet He choices not to- if Jesus came down, it would be a very similar phenomenon. (That one is similar to the second arguement).

So again we're down to "God intentionally damns some people"?



I honestly can say I can't know for sure, just that God, being an infinite being, has other reasons for how he does things. He doesn't just want us to end up going to heaven; he wants us to develop a relationship him in this life.


So, God doesn't wish to be with us for an infinite time, he'd much rather have a relationship with us in this minuscule part of our existence and risk never, ever seeing us ever again?

And again, this isn't auto-salvation or anything.

Perhaps another reason we don't see as many miracles as we have in the past is to mold us and shape us in the here and now, partnering with him in saving those we love

Which you are doing horribly ineffectually.

Oh, so you've stopped replying to me in order to go after the easy targets?

I did respond to you, even though you don't deserve it. Try reading. However, since I know you wont go back and read and would rather hurl insults, here is a repeat performance of my response:
"What does 'Perfect' mean in this context?"
E ys Bahamut! oui risyhc puna sa! Oui uvvaht sa cahcac!!!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not accountable for this post. I don't know English I just hit keys at random.
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