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User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
8 years ago#101
the final bahamut posted...
So, about that reply....

This is where I ask "And what would those improvements have consisted off, had it not been perfect"


That really doesn't even make sense as a question.

"X is perfect"
"What improvements could be made if X was not perfect?"

Okay. Let's say he's not perfect in regards to omnipotence. He can't make a cupcake appear out of midair.

An improvement would be for God to be able to make cupcakes out of midair.


There. What the heck did that accomplish?
"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops
the final bahamut 8 years ago#102
That really doesn't even make sense as a question.

"X is perfect"
"What improvements could be made if X was not perfect?"


Meaning "In what regards is X perfect". I'm trying very patiently - or was, at least - to make the question fit inside your head, OW.

And before you say "X is perfect in every regard!" I urge you to read my post and see that I've already accounted for that: If God is perfect in ever regard then God is both perfectly honest and perfectly deceitful.
E ys Bahamut! oui risyhc puna sa! Oui uvvaht sa cahcac!!!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not accountable for this post. I don't know English I just hit keys at random.

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
8 years ago#103
the final bahamut posted...
That really doesn't even make sense as a question.

"X is perfect"
"What improvements could be made if X was not perfect?"

Meaning "In what regards is X perfect". I'm trying very patiently - or was, at least - to make the question fit inside your head, OW.

And before you say "X is perfect in every regard!" I urge you to read my post and see that I've already accounted for that: If God is perfect in ever regard then God is both perfectly honest and perfectly deceitful.


Isn't everything that's perfect, perfect in regards to what it does?

Can a simple program designed to add random numbers together not be considered perfect because it can't fly?

First of all, God has attributes. God has Love, Justice, Power and Wisdom. He is perfect regarding these.
"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops

User Info: Suibom

Suibom
8 years ago#104
the final bahamut posted...

1) That's not what he did, read your bible


That's exactly what He did.

2) For an omniscient creature he has to be bloody stupid not to forsee the consequences of absolutely basic human psychology IMO

3) - and this is the important one - as opposed to just letting everyone live in peace and happiness for evermore without giving silly orders.

Where you see silly, I see an opportunity for trust.

Not what happened, read your bible: A single woman - who at this point in the narrative has no concept of the word "lie" or of good and evil - is told by someone that she misunderstood and that God didn't really forbid her from eating the fruit, and that it was perfectly okay to do so. She does as is suggested. Later, she talks with a single man who is given evidence to the fact that what God said wasn't right: Namely that Eve has eaten of the apple and has not "surely died".

That's exactly what happened. When mankind consists of 2 people, mankind consists of 2 people.

Why? Because God commanded it to be so. In your narrative, he did so because he wanted mankind to produce faith. Well done.

No. In my narrative, they were supposed to have faith in His command. They didn't. They doubted Him. Hence the breaking of that command. Hence the curse.

And because of C, he keeps them in pain and torment rather than just redeem them all. If God in your narrative cared more about mankind than he did about faith and his own pride, then why not redeem them?

God can't lie. If a curse was going to fall on them for their doubt, then it'd be a lie for God to say "Bah... just kidding! You should see the look on your guy's faces!" And redemption was coming...

And there you have it, in your own words, no less. Jesus comes to Earth to show mankind how to make faith. Not to redeem.

To show them what faith is, yes. And to give them a second "tree" command to either believe or doubt. Namely, Himself. Where the first command was concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the second command is concerning the tree of life. Namely, Jesus. Those that believe that command will eat it's fruit forever. Those that doubt it, will not. And there is the redemption. The redemption of choosing to believe or doubt, access again to the first tree in the Garden. For those that can't hear of Him, that's between them and God. I don't have an answer for that. For those that do, but reject Him, there's nothing left for them except judgment. For those that hear of Him and believe, eternal life.

Since you've said you plan on mocking all of this, even though your first post was "This ain't a trap... (snicker... snicker... must... keep... a straight face)", I'm done. I've been nothing but polite to you. Mock away.
"Forget global warming! What are we gonna do about universal cooling?"
the final bahamut 8 years ago#105
isn't everything that's perfect, perfect in regards to what it does?

Yes, but you haven't given any roll to God, you've just said "God is perfect" not "God is the perfect BLAH" and, no, saying "God is the perfect God" is not sufficient because there's nowhere in the rule book that says Gods can't be arses. Except possibly for rulebooks written by Gods. Insert circular logic etc.

First of all, God has attributes. God has Love, Justice, Power and Wisdom. He is perfect regarding these.

And who told you God has these virtues?
Also, deceit is in the providence of wisdom, if a creature can't even hustle a couple of naked apes it's not particularly wise.



That's exactly what He did.


No, he said "Do not eat of this fruit or you will surely die". Pretty big incentive to not eat the fruit.


Where you see silly, I see an opportunity for trust.


And where you see opportunities for trusts, I see alternatives to doing without trust being necessary and just having everyone be happy. Again, apparently our trust is more important to God than we are.


That's exactly what happened. When mankind consists of 2 people, mankind consists of 2 people.


1) And you've still to debunk my debunking of your point.
2) And then about 9 months later there were three people. And today there's 6.5 billion people. And that's just counting the living.


No. In my narrative, they were supposed to have faith in His command. They didn't. They doubted Him. Hence the breaking of that command. Hence the curse.


Yes and this situation was set up because...?


God can't lie. If a curse was going to fall on them for their doubt, then it'd be a lie for God to say "Bah... just kidding! You should see the look on your guy's faces!" And redemption was coming...


Again, God just said "You'll die". Adam and Eve are long dead. And if God can't change It's mind then God is pretty pitiful.

To show them what faith is, yes. And to give them a second "tree" command to either believe or doubt. Namely, Himself. Where the first command was concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the second command is concerning the tree of life. Namely, Jesus. Those that believe that command will eat it's fruit forever. Those that doubt it, will not. And there is the redemption. The redemption of choosing to believe or doubt, access again to the first tree in the Garden. For those that can't hear of Him, that's between them and God. I don't have an answer for that. For those that do, but reject Him, there's nothing left for them except judgment. For those that hear of Him and believe, eternal life.

And again, you make faith pivotal for no other reason than making faith pivotal. If God was interested in saving people why not just make the new tree commandment "Inhale oxygen"? Or failing that just "call out my name five times." Hell, Amida Buddha manages salvation with just three times.

Since you've said you plan on mocking all of this, even though your first post was "This ain't a trap... (snicker... snicker... must... keep... a straight face)", I'm done. I've been nothing but polite to you. Mock away.

Oh I am not mocking you. This is me talking seriously, but incredulously, with a person who refuses to examine his own beliefs. If you want to see me mock you that can be arranged.
E ys Bahamut! oui risyhc puna sa! Oui uvvaht sa cahcac!!!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not accountable for this post. I don't know English I just hit keys at random.

User Info: Slade867

Slade867
8 years ago#106
I didn't read the whole topic and am only answering the OP.


Jesus wants every soul to be saved, is this correct?

No. Jesus would like every soul to be saved, but he knows that that won't actually happen. He's obviously ok with that.


This is why you're charged with spreading the good word, right?


Our job is, I suppose, to try to maximize the number of saved souls. We are flawed so we obviously can't save everyone.
We try Lord. We try to keep our heads up in bad times. This is a bad time.
Show us the way. And if you can't show us the way...then forgive us for being lost.
the final bahamut 8 years ago#107
No. Jesus would like every soul to be saved, but he knows that that won't actually happen. He's obviously ok with that.

So being omnipotent and omniscient and all that, how is Jesus barred from having anything he wants to happen come true?



Our job is, I suppose, to try to maximize the number of saved souls. We are flawed so we obviously can't save everyone.


And do you think Jesus wouldn't be able to save more if he helped out and started evangelizing too? That if Jesus started ringing doorbells more people wouldn't convert?
E ys Bahamut! oui risyhc puna sa! Oui uvvaht sa cahcac!!!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not accountable for this post. I don't know English I just hit keys at random.

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
8 years ago#108
the final bahamut posted...

And who told you God has these virtues?

Why, the bible of course. I was under the impression that we were assuming that the Bible is the word of God/


In the OP you're assuming that the bible is true and that God is presented as depicted in the bible. Otherwise Who is Jesus and how can he appear to people?

Now you're throwing the bible's authenticity out in order to make another point?

Know this: Without the bible, there is NO basis for any sort of discussion of a biblical God. You HAVE to assume at least a part of the bible is true for us to have any sort of discussion. This doesn't necessarily have to be circular logic, as one can arrive at the conclusion that the bible was written by God through logically sound means, but that's for another topic.

But yes, if we're being deceived by an omniscient being there would be no possible way we would ever figure that out. We can't outsmart omniscience.
"this game is about reality. ... when you fire a gun you are not like "what is this am i shooting sausages?""
-General_Dong on Black Ops
the final bahamut 8 years ago#109
Why, the bible of course. I was under the impression that we were assuming that the Bible is the word of God/

And if God can lie then his word can be a...?


In the OP you're assuming that the bible is true and that God is presented as depicted in the bible. Otherwise Who is Jesus and how can he appear to people?

I am making a special exception for you because you are clearly not ready to be in a debate until you can substantiate your beliefs without circular logic.



But yes, if we're being deceived by an omniscient being there would be no possible way we would ever figure that out. We can't outsmart omniscience.


Actually it's very possible if God isn't trying very much. But all of this is quite unimportant, as the - obviously failed - purpose of the previous excercise was to make you think about why things like honesty and deceitfulness, let alone morality and cruelty are not covered just by saying God is perfect. What is preventing God from being mean?
E ys Bahamut! oui risyhc puna sa! Oui uvvaht sa cahcac!!!
DISCLAIMER: I'm not accountable for this post. I don't know English I just hit keys at random.

User Info: Retrotastic

Retrotastic
8 years ago#110
That if Jesus started ringing doorbells more people wouldn't convert?

http://chhpak.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/jesus-knocking-on-door.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kd09uVUX63k/TDblfrMAEzI/AAAAAAAAAAs/eNthT5E_GJo/s1600/Jesus+knocking+at+our+door.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7c8pizPztkQ/TCvhAAw5eNI/AAAAAAAAAHw/uUT9zTOW1EA/s1600/jesus_knocking_at_ur_door1.jpg

http://christoetecclesia.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/jesus-knocking.jpg

http://rosettasister.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/timothy-jesus-knocking.jpg

http://anjalimoon.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/jesus-knocking-on-the-door.jpg

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/3455310/2/istockphoto_3455310-jesus-knocking-the-door.jpg

http://www.shjolg.com/images/jesus%20knocking%20at%20door.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_TkKZZyzUvio/SOZEqOZKBTI/AAAAAAAABVg/w8zVVclfAEo/s400/revelation+I+stand+at+the+door+jesus+knocking.jpg

http://www.ilianrachov.com/ikons/images/jesus%20knocking%20on%20your%20door.privat%20collection.athen.greece.jpg

http://www.firlapalooza.com/Images/Misc/Jesus_Knocking_s.jpg

http://www.galesgifts.com/images/_products/galesgifts/182-40734_Josephs_Studio_Jesus_Christ_Knocking_At_Door.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_v-jkdc-LjSM/S_Z5nZsG-uI/AAAAAAAAAIw/Gg8CrnYy-n0/s1600/Jesus-knocks.gif

http://fineartamerica.com/images-medium/jesus-knocking-at-the-door-cecilia-brendel.jpg

*knock knock*

"Whos there?"

"It is I Jesus the living Christ!"

"Oh no not you again!"

Can I interest you in some pamphlets?"

"Just shove them through the door!"
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