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User Info: Devil_A

Devil_A
7 months ago#41
HA0U posted...
dude, I just told you it is from the club book, not the wiki.

it's not completed. The great seal is to block erebus from contacting with her.
why are you repeating what I have just said?

p3 spoiler

The Fall happens when erebus contacts Nyx so your hypothesis is fundamentally flawed.
In P3, her avatar told you killing him does nothing at all. you are even given the chance to kill him

Erebus itself has no influence on Nyx's ability. removing erebus does nothing to nyx.
besides erebus is already known to be killed and respawned several times before P5
I think you don't understand erebus is humanity's malice, and it is not nyx.

Nyx is located in the deepest depths of the unconscious of the psyche of every single living being.
do you not know when the shadow escapes the body, the body fall into apathy syndrome?
If you played p3 or p5, killing the shadow is the very same act as killing the human.
what do you think killing nyx entails? the death of humanity.


1) in the very same class book youre using, its mentioned that the shadows are all part of nyx in some capacity and death is the culmination of all of these parts of nyx's psyche. The reason ryoji said it didnt matter if he died or not is because the shadows are always going to attempt to combine and fuse back with nyx.

In either case my hypothesis in the 3 scenarios still stands however way you look at it. If it is humanity's psyche that is sealing nyx's psyche, then the shadows become surpressed due to the prime trigger for these shadows coming out is negative will and those essentially being removed in maruki's world. Nobody will have the thought that "i want to die" or "this is too hard, i might as well give up" both again being examples given in the classbook.

And you still didnt address my 3rd scenario either.

2) Youre the one who doesnt seem to understand the source your using.

Its stated in the same line as the above example that negative thoughts are what release nyx's psyche in human hearts. Regardless of what form or shape it takes, its still going to exist however if a person took away the triggers for the human mind to give up to nyx, these nyx fragments have no way to escape the subconscious.

Being parts of nyx, you seal away/remove all of these at once and you severe any sort of feasible way for her to return or exist.

This is also stated in fes as what door kun's main objective is so again, not sealing her in any capacity.

4) Regarding your last point, its not a matter of whether or not maruki and humanity would live after killing nyx. The question is can he actually do it in his cognitive world.

After reading most of the guidebook(which was also used in the wiki) the answer appears to be yes.

As shes essentially in every single person. If this scenario played out in maruki's cognitive world then either thered be no way for her to come back or that due to her arrival, maruki just wastes her away along with humanity as his powers being able to affect the psyche and reality would affect her.

In the end, he would essentially erase her existence from the world whether it be by erasing negative will which would stop shadows from affecting or attempting to fuse to summon her or just erase her entirely from the psyche and kill all of humanity

User Info: HA0U

HA0U
7 months ago#42
In either case my hypothesis in the 3 scenarios still stands however way you look at it. If it is humanity's psyche that is sealing nyx's psyche, then the shadows become surpressed due to the prime trigger for these shadows coming out is negative will and those essentially being removed in maruki's world. Nobody will have the thought that "i want to die" or "this is too hard, i might as well give up" both again being examples given in the classbook.


removing negative will only affects erebus. this is already confirmed in Fes.
your hypothesis is already refuted and shattered into dust. This does not affect maruki being able to kill Nyx, as you have assumed.

Being parts of nyx, you seal away/remove all of these at once and you severe any sort of feasible way for her to return or exist.

This is also stated in fes as what door kun's main objective is so again, not sealing her in any capacity.


when a nyx fragment is removed from a human, the human falls into apathy syndrome.
When the human's psyche stays removed, the human will waste away and die. This is already stated in fes and you still beat around the bush with no point.

When you kill the human's shadow aka nyx fragment, you kill the human. This is already confirmed in persona 5.

As shes essentially in every single person. If this scenario played out in maruki's cognitive world then either thered be no way for her to come back or that due to her arrival, maruki just wastes her away along with humanity as his powers being able to affect the psyche and reality would affect her.

In the end, he would essentially erase her existence from the world whether it be by erasing negative will which would stop shadows from affecting or attempting to fuse to summon her or just erase her entirely from the psyche and kill all of humanity


you have no understanding of the source. erasing negative will from humanity only affects erebus and fes already confirmed it.
P4 sequel further confirms erebus has been killed several times and none of which has indicated nyx is affected in any way except your random assumption.

why are you still repeating this multiple times over multiple posts?
Gott ist tot

User Info: Haar_Dragon

Haar_Dragon
7 months ago#43
HA0U posted...
removing negative will only affects erebus. this is already confirmed in Fes.
your hypothesis is already refuted and shattered into dust. This does not affect maruki being able to kill Nyx, as you have assumed.
You can say this, but that doesn't mean anyone is convinced. Regardless, the point is that destroying Nyx's Avatar prevents the real thing from coming to Earth and making contact with Erebus. Note that SEES distinctly failed to destroy Nyx's Avatar, which is why the Great Seal was required in the first place.
when a nyx fragment is removed from a human, the human falls into apathy syndrome.
When the human's psyche stays removed, the human will waste away and die. This is already stated in fes and you still beat around the bush with no point.

When you kill the human's shadow aka nyx fragment, you kill the human. This is already confirmed in persona 5.
Then why were victims of Apathy Syndrome healed when the Arcana Shadows were destroyed? Seeing as the Arcana were the ones taking people's souls (thus why Apathy Syndrome became more prevalent as the Full Moon got closer), destroying them released everything they'd eaten, and the victims recovered. Nihilistic thoughts are not the entirety of someone's Shadow. Unless that someone is Mitsuo Kubo or Teddie, but it's not the case in general..
you have no understanding of the source. erasing negative will from humanity only affects erebus and fes already confirmed it.
P4 sequel further confirms erebus has been killed several times and none of which has indicated nyx is affected in any way except your random assumption.
Erebus respawns, yes, but the point is that it brings about the Fall by coming in contact with Nyx. So, no Nyx, no Fall. No Nyx Avatar, no Nyx. And the reason Erebus respawns is because humans still have malicious thoughts, no? So, no malice, no Erebus. No Erebus, no Fall.

My apologies, but I might be slightly incompetent.

User Info: HA0U

HA0U
7 months ago#44
destroying Nyx's Avatar prevents the real thing from coming to Earth


already disproven in the journey. you are given the opportunity to do so in dec.
The Great Seal is there to prevent humanity from committing suicide

Then why were victims of Apathy Syndrome healed when the Arcana Shadows were destroyed? Seeing as the Arcana were the ones taking people's souls (thus why Apathy Syndrome became more prevalent as the Full Moon got closer), destroying them released everything they'd eaten, and the victims recovered. Nihilistic thoughts are not the entirety of someone's Shadow. Unless that someone is Mitsuo Kubo or Teddie, but it's not the case in general..


when the nyx fragment escapes, the victims never recovered.
when you defeated the arcana shadows, you still see victims around.


Erebus respawns, yes, but the point is that it brings about the Fall by coming in contact with Nyx. So, no Nyx, no Fall. No Nyx Avatar, no Nyx. And the reason Erebus respawns is because humans still have malicious thoughts, no? So, no malice, no Erebus. No Erebus, no Fall.


Stopping the fall has no impact on Nyx itself.
The Fall happens, humanity dies. The Fall does not happen, Nyx is still around.
No malice, no erebus, no fall, nyx is still around. Do you comprehend?
Gott ist tot

User Info: Haar_Dragon

Haar_Dragon
7 months ago#45
HA0U posted...
already disproven in the journey. you are given the opportunity to do so in dec.
The Great Seal is there to prevent humanity from committing suicide
You're given the opportunity to destroy "the part of [Nyx] that's human". That's not the same thing. They completely fail to destroy its true form.
when the nyx fragment escapes, the victims never recovered.
when you defeated the arcana shadows, you still see victims around.
They definitely do recover. If you watch TV, they explicitly say that the victims recover. Mitsuru and Yukari both talk about Apathy Syndrome victims recovering. As does Junpei I believe.
Stopping the fall has no impact on Nyx itself.
The Fall happens, humanity dies. The Fall does not happen, Nyx is still around.
No malice, no erebus, no fall, nyx is still around. Do you comprehend?
Good point, but then we get into speculation; does Nyx still exist in a world where nobody dies? Can Maruki stop people from dying at all? Either way, Nyx has like 24k HP and there is no way Maruki is tearing through that, so it's a matter of whether he can just "nope" Nyx out of existence. Which there's no evidence to suggest either way as far as I'm aware.
My apologies, but I might be slightly incompetent.

User Info: EbonyEye

EbonyEye
7 months ago#46
Haar_Dragon posted...
You're given the opportunity to destroy "the part of [Nyx] that's human". That's not the same thing. They completely fail to destroy its true form.
They definitely do recover. If you watch TV, they explicitly say that the victims recover. Mitsuru and Yukari both talk about Apathy Syndrome victims recovering. As does Junpei I believe.
Good point, but then we get into speculation; does Nyx still exist in a world where nobody dies? Can Maruki stop people from dying at all? Either way, Nyx has like 24k HP and there is no way Maruki is tearing through that, so it's a matter of whether he can just "nope" Nyx out of existence. Which there's no evidence to suggest either way as far as I'm aware.

Maruki uses Cognition and the collective Unconscious to alter Reality.
Since Nyx is not a part of it, i would assume he cannot interact with her. Of course thats just my hypothesis.

What im wondering about is, the Reason Humanity even fears Death, is because that was basically the only way to stop Nyx (by creating the Collective Unconscious). If Maruki just nopes Fear away, could that not actually reactivate Nyx? If he expels her Psyche out of the Collective Unconscious, what is to stop it from reuniting with her Body?
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User Info: Devil_A

Devil_A
7 months ago#47
EbonyEye posted...
Maruki uses Cognition and the collective Unconscious to alter Reality.
Since Nyx is not a part of it, i would assume he cannot interact with her. Of course thats just my hypothesis.

What im wondering about is, the Reason Humanity even fears Death, is because that was basically the only way to stop Nyx (by creating the Collective Unconscious). If Maruki just nopes Fear away, could that not actually reactivate Nyx? If he expels her Psyche out of the Collective Unconscious, what is to stop it from reuniting with her Body?

According to the classbook, nyx is a part of the human subconscious after several years of her psyche being in earth. So that being the case, maruki most definitely could affect her in some capacity if he wanted to. Theoretically of course. Regardless of one poster who doesnt want to admit it

Nyx is the cause for shadows being part of the human psyche however, its negative emotions that make them arise. Thats also one of the reasons in p3 where the main bad's plan was to get a huge amount of them together as that group of shadows would be enough for her psyche to reach her body. Its also the reason why they are so against persona users as those are the ppl whove you could say liberated their shadows and thus part of nyx.

After reading through the classbook, i gotta say im not particularly fond of how they twisted the original theme of persona to give it some higher meaning when the original was based around carl jung's works. In his stuff, there wasnt some higher being or whatever that gave rise to the human subconscious. It was more of an ancient familial kind of deal.

User Info: HA0U

HA0U
7 months ago#48
They definitely do recover. If you watch TV, they explicitly say that the victims recover. Mitsuru and Yukari both talk about Apathy Syndrome victims recovering. As does Junpei I believe.


not all. that is the difference.

the arcana shadow only appear at full moon and you killed them all on the same night.
those who recover are merely affected by waves of death as the date gets closer to the full moon
and they start to recover as the moon phase moves from full moon to new moon.
these two points were meant to foreshadow the full moon is a critical factor in P3.

You also realize the SEES team is not affected by the waves of death, including those who haven't joined yet.

Good point, but then we get into speculation; does Nyx still exist in a world where nobody dies? Can Maruki stop people from dying at all? Either way, Nyx has like 24k HP and there is no way Maruki is tearing through that, so it's a matter of whether he can just "nope" Nyx out of existence. Which there's no evidence to suggest either way as far as I'm aware


she would. Nyx fragment is everyone's shadow and killing your shadow is proven to be fatal in p5 but when people die, did it affect nyx? nope.

in game term, nyx's wave of death is 9999 almighty damage every turn.
that is what p3hero has to tank and trigger endure every single turn to survive.
those on earth are also affected by the wave of death but at a much lesser degree.

why does Maruki fight the PT if he was really omnipotent?
why does Maruki has weakness if he was really omnipotent?
Why does Maruki need a fistfight if he was really omnipotent?
the simple answer is that he isn't omnipotent.
Gott ist tot

User Info: Devil_A

Devil_A
7 months ago#49
HA0U posted...
not all. that is the difference.

the arcana shadow only appear at full moon and you killed them all on the same night.
those who recover are merely affected by waves of death as the date gets closer to the full moon
and they start to recover as the moon phase moves from full moon to new moon.
these two points were meant to foreshadow the full moon is a critical factor in P3.

You also realize the SEES team is not affected by the waves of death, including those who haven't joined yet.

she would. Nyx fragment is everyone's shadow and killing your shadow is proven to be fatal in p5 but when people die, did it affect nyx? nope.

in game term, nyx's wave of death is 9999 almighty damage every turn.
that is what p3hero has to tank and trigger endure every single turn to survive.
those on earth are also affected by the wave of death but at a much lesser degree.

why does Maruki fight the PT if he was really omnipotent?
why does Maruki has weakness if he was really omnipotent?
Why does Maruki need a fistfight if he was really omnipotent?
the simple answer is that he isn't omnipotent.

Its not like maruki was just a man with godlike powers that was stubborn and wanted to prove a point aye. God forbid he actually had character with moral values or internal struggles.

Naw, hes just a one dimensional dweeb with some super power. Lets just ignore him bringing the dead back to life or rewriting people's histories altogether too while were at it.

Youre even bringing in game damage now to try and prove your point and frankly thats doing anything but m8.

User Info: MakeRoxgreat

MakeRoxgreat
7 months ago#50
HA0U posted...

why does Maruki fight the PT if he was really omnipotent?
why does Maruki has weakness if he was really omnipotent?
Why does Maruki need a fistfight if he was really omnipotent?
the simple answer is that he isn't omnipotent.

Maybe because the guy wants the thieves to accept his reality of their own free will? Because Lavenza outright tells you he won't be at full power until February 3rd after which he will be all powerful? Being omnipotent isn't needed to either erase Nyx from existence or kick her permanently out of the Universe. It isn't that hard to understand, Maruki rewrite reality by altering cognition, he change the world's cognition so that death doesn't exist as a concept or that the moon has always been just rocks and not an alien lifeform and Nyx will be unable to stop him.

The Devil can't have my soul for the Lord Atlus already owns it (along with my wallet).
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