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User Info: Andrex_93

Andrex_93
1 week ago#31
metroidfan987 posted...
The devs made a lot of excuses for Dexit, and all of them were proven false. So I will never take their words at face value ever again.
Well, no, the first motivation they gave, "being able to put out games as often as fans want them", which is the actually true one, is 100% true; although they didn't mention publishers, which are the main push behind yearly releases, so it's only a half-truth. Dexit likely didn't need to happen now to comply to that- and given how incompetent they seem to be on a technical level, it may very well needed to happen now, as, otherwise, there's little reason to go through this PR mess - , but, eventually, it did.

metroidfan987 posted...
I have nothing against GF and Nintendo making Doubles the official VGC format. I get it, competitive singles matches would take too long. But that doesn't mean it is ever a third party's job to balance anything that should be balanced by the devs themselves. And seriously, it wouldn't hurt GF to balance singles, seeing as it is only one of two primary battle formats. More importantly, significant effort to balance singles was in fact made back as recent as Gen 5. They really started pushing Doubles as the official format after the release of Gen 6. Although Gen 6 did do a good job of significantly changing the meta, thanks to Mega Evolutions.
GF balances around the in-game and VGC/Doubles: having to account for Singles as well, let alone with a fan-made tier format, would be absolutely impossible/hell to do, let alone under their already strict deadlines.

They might throw a bone or two to Singles, but it's not their focus and it shouldn't be, considering they need all they have to properly balance what they do focus on and already some of the in-games have suffered, anyway.

And no, I don't see why "Gen 5 balanced Singles more but Gen 6 pushed VGC" when, infamously, Gen 5 had the dreaded weather wars for Singles because they were absolutely no issue in Doubles, and so the devs thought they were fine, but GF changed the weather Abilities anyway, come Gen 6; so, if anything, it would look the opposite of your statement is true, even though obviously weather isn't everything and Gen 6 brought Megas, which were broken.

metroidfan987 posted...
There are pokemon that struggle to get a good moveset, because Game Freak doesn't actually bother to properly balance most of the mons. Jolteon was never a major presence in OU, not even in Gen 6 OU.

Why do you assume that a pokemon's type coverage is the single crucial factor for determining the outcome of a match? If that were true, players would assemble nothing but sweeper sets.
Both of these are untrue: if a Pokémon doesn't have an expansive Movepool, it's not just because "GF forgot, lul", but potentially precisely because they want that mon to have less options, whether it's because it's not plausible (say, Sunflora learning Close Combat) or because of balance (Tapu Koko having higher Attack but having Fairy STAB only on the Special side, Dragapult not learning Shadow Claw, etc.); and, again, defensive Pokémon are often support: if you expand Garchomp and the like's Movepool, support Pokémon might become less and less needed, and sweepers would have all the tools needed to deal with their opponents (counters, if you play Singles) by themselves.

I actually think GF goes too far in expanding Movepools, sometimes, but, for the first time with SS, they scaled things back quite a bit.. But made many expansions at the same time, and for the first time in a first pair with TRs, so..

metroidfan987 posted...
Case in point: as it currently stands, Ash's Pikachu knows and actively uses at least 7 moves.
From what I know, this is not true: I remember people lamenting that it lost Volt Tackle for Electroweb or some s***, for example.

metroidfan987 posted...
"Four Moveslot Syndrome" is a curse, because it often prevents me from creating the most optimal movesets for pokemon/teams that I want to use. I don't care if opposing teams having 6 moves per mon becomes more intense and challenging, I want that. Because that is what will push me to optimize my team(s) to the max. What I cannot stand is when a format I want to play, remains practically the same, because the devs can't be bothered to evolve it further.
So it's a curse for you, because the Pokémon you want to use happen to be, in your opinion, limited: but that doesn't mean that things aren't balanced, let alone that things would be better with more Moves per each mon.

And again, aside from even the Smogon format clearly not staying the same this Gen from what it was previously (unless of course they ban every new thing), the devs have stated how, idiotically enough, they considered expanding Movepools only to realize what they should have known from the start and that that is a s***ty move, because it only furthers the gap between what's viable and what isn't for the reasons already amply explained above; if Garchomp can run its usual tools + Tailwind all on the same set, you have no reason to use a Support mon to setup Tailwind and, say, lower the opponents' Stats, etc.

So, especially, but not exclusively, for how they do Movepools, amplifying the Moveset limit would only make the rich richer.
"Actors are agents of change. A film, a piece of theater, a piece of music, or a book can make a difference. It can change the world." - Alan Rickman

User Info: Rydershigh

Rydershigh
1 week ago#32
I don’t understand the point really.
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User Info: Andrex_93

Andrex_93
1 week ago#33
metroidfan987 posted...
Honestly, if a tournament was restricted to Gen 8 pokemon only, you could not pay me to watch it. There is no rhyme or reason to the stat spreads, and there are almost no doubles-centric abilities. What good is having new pokemon, if over 90% of them are nowhere near good enough for high-level play? The fact that Mega Evolution, a major core mechanic evolution, influenced the competitive metas more than the new pokemon themselves, is proof that Game Freak has no idea how to properly balance Singles or Doubles, and at this point, I'm fairly certain that they do not actually care for balancing the game at all.
This is completely incorrect: I mean, again, they do go too far with Stats, imo, and, in fact, I have an entire spreadsheet dedicated to changing all of the Pokémon, so, believe me, I don't disagree that they go too far, sometimes.

But there being almost no double-centric Abilities when stuff like Symbiosis, Stalwart and Propeller tail only work in Doubles and things like Cotton Down, Defiant, Competitive, Prankster, Pastel Veil, the Surge and Weather Abilities etc. are significantly better/more strategic in Doubles than they are in Singles is complete nonsense.

Heck, the fact that Dynamax alone is absolutely great in VGC but ends up only exacerbating Singles' problems is further proof that they specifically balance around Doubles and that that format is much more versatile.

Mega Evolution was by far the worst shonen-y gimmick they've introduced, and by far the most broken one without any shadow of a doubt. It overshadowing the new Pokémon is only further proof of how badly thought-out of a mechanic it was/how bad of a fit for the games it was, nothing else.
"Actors are agents of change. A film, a piece of theater, a piece of music, or a book can make a difference. It can change the world." - Alan Rickman

User Info: Fwahm

Fwahm
1 week ago#34
metroidfan987 posted...
. Case in point: as it currently stands, Ash's Pikachu knows and actively uses at least 7 moves.
Blatantly false. Pikachu only knows Thunderbolt, Iron Tail, Electroweb, and Quick Attack right now. It hasn't used Electro Ball a single time after learning Electroweb, hasn't used Volt Tackle a single time after learning Electro Ball, hasn't used Thunder a single time after learning Volt Tackle, and hasn't used any other moves at all since all the way back in Johto.

Please stop making things up.

User Info: metroidfan987

metroidfan987
1 week ago#35
Andrex_93 posted...
Well, no, the first motivation they gave, "being able to put out games as often as fans want them", which is the actually true one, is 100% true; although they didn't mention publishers, which are the main push behind yearly releases, so it's only a half-truth. Dexit likely didn't need to happen now to comply to that- and given how incompetent they seem to be on a technical level, it may very well needed to happen now, as, otherwise, there's little reason to go through this PR mess - , but, eventually, it did.

GF balances around the in-game and VGC/Doubles: having to account for Singles as well, let alone with a fan-made tier format, would be absolutely impossible/hell to do, let alone under their already strict deadlines.

They might throw a bone or two to Singles, but it's not their focus and it shouldn't be, considering they need all they have to properly balance what they do focus on and already some of the in-games have suffered, anyway.

And no, I don't see why "Gen 5 balanced Singles more but Gen 6 pushed VGC" when, infamously, Gen 5 had the dreaded weather wars for Singles because they were absolutely no issue in Doubles, and so the devs thought they were fine, but GF changed the weather Abilities anyway, come Gen 6; so, if anything, it would look the opposite of your statement is true, even though obviously weather isn't everything and Gen 6 brought Megas, which were broken.

Both of these are untrue: if a Pokémon doesn't have an expansive Movepool, it's not just because "GF forgot, lul", but potentially precisely because they want that mon to have less options, whether it's because it's not plausible (say, Sunflora learning Close Combat) or because of balance (Tapu Koko having higher Attack but having Fairy STAB only on the Special side, Dragapult not learning Shadow Claw, etc.); and, again, defensive Pokémon are often support: if you expand Garchomp and the like's Movepool, support Pokémon might become less and less needed, and sweepers would have all the tools needed to deal with their opponents (counters, if you play Singles) by themselves.

I actually think GF goes too far in expanding Movepools, sometimes, but, for the first time with SS, they scaled things back quite a bit.. But made many expansions at the same time, and for the first time in a first pair with TRs, so..

From what I know, this is not true: I remember people lamenting that it lost Volt Tackle for Electroweb or some s***, for example.

So it's a curse for you, because the Pokémon you want to use happen to be, in your opinion, limited: but that doesn't mean that things aren't balanced, let alone that things would be better with more Moves per each mon.

And again, aside from even the Smogon format clearly not staying the same this Gen from what it was previously (unless of course they ban every new thing), the devs have stated how, idiotically enough, they considered expanding Movepools only to realize what they should have known from the start and that that is a s***ty move, because it only furthers the gap between what's viable and what isn't for the reasons already amply explained above; if Garchomp can run its usual tools + Tailwind all on the same set, you have no reason to use a Support mon to setup Tailwind and, say, lower the opponents' Stats, etc.

So, especially, but not exclusively, for how they do Movepools, amplifying the Moveset limit would only make the rich richer.
At this point, I think it is safe to say, that Game Freak, among other companies, either are a) not aware of what fans actually want, b) willfully ignorant of recent criticisms (i.e. Gen 7 flaws), c) Ignore the fans who blatantly say that they should stop the yearly release schedule, or d) all of the above.

I'm not asking GF to balance Singles at Smogon level, but it's not too much to ask them to make pokemon with stat spreads that actually make it possible for more pokemon within a single generation to successfully fill the necessary niches in Singles, along with providing abilities to significantly boost weaker pokemon's viability. Dedicated sweepers? The only ones that stand out are Cinderace, Inteleon, and Dragapult, and between the first two, one blatantly outclasses the other. Dedicated walls? None in the veins of Skarmory, Gliscor, Blissey, etc., except the gimmicky Galarian Corsola. Which is why watching a Smogon OU battle will result in a high chance of seeing at least one side using the likes of Ferrothorn and Toxapex. Dedicated supporters? Unless a supporter is intended to be a suicide lead, it needs to have moderately decent survivability. Pokemon like Bronzong and Clefable come to mind, and in terms of stat spread, ability, and movepool, I cannot find a single Galar pokemon that can optimally fill a support role in Singles.

Bringing weather abilities to non-legendary pokemon, along with weather-fueled abilities and already-existing weather-fueled moves, enabled the creation of fully-fleshed out weather based teams, three generations after weather was initially introduced. I call that a significant leap forward for the Singles meta, and a vocal minority complaining about "Weather Wars", is not going to change my position on that. Regrettably, I missed out on the Weather Wars, because back then I was not aware of the existence of online battle simulators. Neutering the weather wars in Gen 6, only gave rise to what I call "Priority Wars", and an increase in "full-HP abilities", gave rise to an increased necessity for entry hazards (Stealth Rock) and entry hazard removers (Spinners and Defoggers). Back in Gen 4, I felt no need to use Stealth Rock and/or Rapid Spin. And no, Mega Evolution was not broken at all. I played Gen 6 OU a lot, and besides the likes of Mega Kanga and Mega Gengar needing to be banned, not once did Mega Evolutions feel broken to me. In fact, Mega Evolution was a well fleshed out and balanced mechanic, and Z-Moves were clearly intended to be the companion mechanic to Mega Evolution. But, for whatever unknown reason, GF pushed Z-Moves up to Gen 7, and to make it worse, they did not bother to flesh out Z-Moves as they did Mega Evolution. As a result, I ended up never even using Z-Moves in Gen 7 OU, because of how insignificant the mechanic was. And of course the lack of changes to Gen 7 singles made the format mostly tasteless to me, and for the first time since I began competitive battling back in Gen 4, I actually got into Doubles. So, from what I can tell, the only people who complain about Mega Evolution, are the people who just don't like it, do not like change, and are not willing to try and adapt to a significant change.

By no means did I suggest that pokemon with already good movepools, should have their movepools expanded. Obviously, pokemon with lackluster movepools are the ones who need their movepools expanded, and it should go without saying that pokemon should not have moves that contradict their anatomy, I don't know why you even brought that up.

Knowing the anime's past record of incosistency, I cannot believe that Pikachu, (or other pokemon on Ash's team) actually forgot relevant moves. Chances are, viewers will forget the pokemons' moveset history, writers will forget what what video game mechanics they quoted in past episodes, and "forgotten" moves will be brought back whenever writers find it convenient.

Every gen boiling down to "the same 20 pokemon on all teams:, in Singles or VGC, is the opposite of balanced.

There is no actual evidence to prove that 6 moves per pokemon, would "only make the rich richer".
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(edited 1 week ago)

User Info: kaliskonig

kaliskonig
1 week ago#36
If they ever add more than one region for PVE sure. As is there is no reason to.
Reiji Arisu, Elma, Wonder Red, Steve, and Rex as DLC!
(edited 1 week ago)

User Info: Andrex_93

Andrex_93
1 week ago#37
metroidfan987 posted...
Singles paragraph
But the thing is, since they've also reduced the number of new mons per Gen and they don't balance around Singles, expecting them to create what you think are decent enough spreads for all those roles is unrealistic, because, again, they don't cater to that format almost at all. Personally, I think they only look at the in-game balance, for a 1V1 format, and at best throw a bone or two but mostly make changes that affect the official meta and by extension sometimes the Singles one, too.

They intend to have Pokémon in a given game covering different roles without those Pokémon all having to be new ones, and that's by virtue of them not making all new Pokémon each time, and it's frankly understandable, especially under the constraints they are ever since switching to 3D.

metroidfan987 posted...
Weather wars, Megas and formats paragraph
I wasn't one of those lamenting about weather wars, either, but that's because I wasn't really playing competitive and, looking back at it and from what I've been told, those weren't a big deal in the official format due to the different nature of that format, but I can still absolutely see how, in Singles, it was absolutely too much, so I think that's one of the positive changes Gen 6 brought, balance-wise. Weather teams clearly aren't possible just with infinite weather, anyway, so yeah.

I mean, I can only think of Multiscale and, after Gen 6, Gale Wings and technically Disguise, as far as "full-HP Abilities" are concerned, but perhaps you're using the term in a more general way? Regardless, the former was never relevant in Doubles and Gale Wings and Disguise were nerfed in the Generations after their introduction, meaning though that Gen 6 didn't see a reliance on Entry Hazards specifically to hamper Gale Wings directly.

Hazards have always been relevant in Singles because of its switch-heavy nature, but apparently you've had very different experiences from everybody else I know of and/or read about: Hazards, Megas and Z-Moves were incredibly relevant and, especially for the latter two, not using one immediately put you at a disadvantage. Idk how your performance was, in those metas, but just about any competitive player I know and again have read about has said what I said, which is that they were incredibly influential.

Megas were absolutely broken because they were a nuke that, instead of being 1-time use, was constant, which by definition is broken, for a nuke; it was a free huge power-up at 0 cost. Z-Moves were at least limited but enhanced coverage far too much and were allegedly a tad too unpredictable, due to how much they could enhance otherwise weaker coverage; I and everybody I know don't consider them nearly as broken as Megas for already mentioned reasons, but that still doesn't mean they were healthy.

Heck, idk how you could now state that Megas were balanced when you previously stated that Megas being so powerful meant that normal Pokémon couldn't find a place to shine in the meta, so idek what your view is, at this point.

metroidfan987 posted...
By no means did I suggest that pokemon with already good movepools, should have their movepools expanded. Obviously, pokemon with lackluster movepools are the ones who need their movepools expanded, and it should go without saying that pokemon should not have moves that contradict their anatomy, I don't know why you even brought that up.
I brought it up because you mention your gripes regarding coverage, making weaker mons more powerful and the like: weaker mons are weaker partly because of those reasons, and, sometimes, enhancing a Pokémon' Stats or Movepool is not feasible because of those reasons, and enlarging Movepools to 6 Moves would only exacerbate that problem (again, Garchomp would be able to fit more coverage and boosting Moves, while Sunflora would be able to.. fit redundant/outclassed Moves on there, since it has a hard time finding 4 useful Moves as is).

metroidfan987 posted...
There is no actual evidence to prove that 6 moves per pokemon, would "only make the rich richer".
Common sense and read pretty much everything that's been stated ITT regarding that, including testing done by the developers themselves. Even then, if you're suggesting that they should "try it out once just to have factual data", that's again simply wanting to ruin a meta for the sake of it when base-level theorymoning could again show you why that would absolutely not work in the slightest.

metroidfan987 posted...
Every gen boiling down to "the same 20 pokemon on all teams:, in Singles or VGC, is the opposite of balanced.
This is a meme usually brought forth by those who don't know what they're talking about, tbh: first of all, in regards to VGC, Regional Dex years have the most variation precisely because the power gap is smaller, so you have years like VGC17 where the meta was constantly changing and, aside from Arcanine and to a lesser extent Garchomp, it would be hard to pinpoint a mon that was absolutely great and had the same levels of usability all year, let alone 20.
Second of all, a meta having relevant picks does not mean it's unbalanced, for god's sake: for how the games are built - because, remember, this aren't just competitive games and so the mons need to reflect also the RPG aspect, even though I think they've gotten worse and worse at doing that, partly because they introduce so few new Pokémon per Gen - there will always be "better Pokémon", and, for how competitive metas work in any game, there will always be relevant picks that will be used more, and team variation will be found in which counters to those relevant picks players will choose.
"Actors are agents of change. A film, a piece of theater, a piece of music, or a book can make a difference. It can change the world." - Alan Rickman
It used to be possible through glitches in the first two generations.

Using the Missingno glitch, one could catch overleveled wild Pokémon (I got a Starmie and a Haunter that way), but they could only go to Level 255 (the maximum) if you use rare candies, then you could set them to Level 0. If they gained XP in battle, they are reset to Level 100.

The name "MxMyDzv" could be used to catch a Level 184 Mewtwo.

Proud atheist and liberal.
"There's no place like- I wanna be a witch!" - Leela from Futurama

User Info: boomstickbhg

boomstickbhg
1 week ago#39
the only worse thing would be if someone was crazy enough to think they should add more moveslots.
My pen is mightier.

User Info: MewistloveMew

MewistloveMew
1 week ago#40
I don't know if they are going to or not.
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