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  3. Read FAQ, still don't get forge/temper

User Info: DragonBlood87

DragonBlood87
5 months ago#21
The tempering system in this game is mostly based on the presence of the various Mystic Cards (there can only be 3 in effect on any given piece of equipment at a time, plus a hidden slot for a fourth inactive one), plus the last item used. In addition to those, there are also the essence levels, the item's special effect (if any), status defenses, and the plunge attacks of weapons (note: replacing a plunge attack will not cause any visual change when performing it, it'll just modify the damage and status effects).

Varnishes work by stacking the same effect in each of the card slots and also through the last-item-used slot. However, they are not a permanent bonus that will persist if you keep adding more items; just like real-life varnishes, they are the last step done. If you temper anything else on afterwards, you'll remove at least one of the bonuses, and need to redo the varnishing.

Essence levels are kind-of-sort-of separate; they are affected by what you temper onto the item, but they persist as you keep tempering more items on (unless you temper on something that causes them to change, or you have a situation that causes one element to drain its opposite). They provide a multiplier to your attack power; the specific percentage each essence level increases the attack power by varies from material to material, but in general, it's very worthwhile to raise them, and that multiplier is how people get crazy weapons with 999 attack power.

But the stuff in the varnishes is specifically tied to either the card or the item itself. For example, tempering on the Holy Water item adds the Cleric card to the item, and each active Cleric card gives +50% to the item type's Heavy substat and -50% to the item type's Sharp substat; this bonus disappears as soon as the card is pushed off the item by newer cards, though. Likewise, the Giant's Horn item gives that same bonus until another item is tempered on.

The idea is to do everything else you want first (i.e., raise essence levels, add any plunge attacks you want, etc.), then finish by stacking a lot of the same multiplying bonuses and penalties on the item, as each multiplied bonus is a larger increase than the one before while each multiplied penalty is smaller than the one before.
Atheism - A non-prophet organization.
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits

User Info: Pancake

Pancake
3 months ago#22
started watching a playthrough of this. remembered the crafting system.

https://i.imgur.com/Lt5mgMJ.gif
https://i.imgur.com/u1wgDDH.gif

User Info: Gnessim

Gnessim
2 months ago#23
I actually found this topic because I was looking for some poor man's tempering to just give myself that little extra edge over stock weapons, just because I could, before going to farm Dark Stalkers and Polter Boxes. Didn't wanna blindly follow recipes without explanations so I ended up spending 3 days of very little sleep on fully learning the forging and tempering systems. Wouldn't be possible if I had a job.
I was left unsatisfied with the guides (FAQs) available, although they're still of great help, but a lot of basic information is glossed over or outright omitted, terminology is murky and there are some rare mistakes in them. Had to dig up old Internet archives circa 2003, LoM Kitchen and whatnot, decompile some utilities people made to get proper formula and compile tables...

So here's the first recipe I came up with and I'll try to explain what I'm doing in detail:

First I forge a LorantSilver 1-handed Sword, since that's the best metal I currently have access to.
I also had Obsidian for primary, but it's less flexible and requires varnishing materials I got none of on hand.

That LorantSilver sword comes out with 25 offense and stock blank for all other stats.
I wanna concentrate on building up that offense. Any attribute gains along the way will just be nice little bonuses that I will mostly omit this time.

Onto essence tempering:

Sum of all elemental essences will boost resulting offense rating.
Essences can also affect other things, mostly as per-requisites for cards but not in this recipe.
You can technically just set markers (also known as triggers and taints), then just feed some non-elemental energy (using Acid or better) and markers are supposed to route that energy into boosting essences but that didn't seem to work any better than simpler stuff with this recipe, so I've gone with elemental feeding.
Dryad essence will soak up most collateral energy here.
Also yeah, no consumption.
Just mostly simple cheap garden variety trash for now.

Small Seed — Any seed will do, but I got lots of these. This gives 1 Dryad essence and a marker. There's also a Dryad card that just ensures we get the marker.
2x Squalphin — 2 Undine essence. Easily grown from Blue + Yellow seeds.
2x Cornflower — 2 Wisp essence. Wisp goes well with Dryad. Yellow + White seeds to grow.
2x Sulpher — This gives us Sorcerer cards that lowers material resistance to Dryad essence boosting, lowering energy requirements. And itself brings enough energy to push Dryad over to 2 and then 3. You'll probably find it sold in Lumina.
Small Seed — This pushes the Sorcerer card out of the invisible slot into the first active one and boosts Dryad straight to 5 with resistance now at mere 1.
Flat Seed — Gets us Dryad essence level 6.
And we're done with essence tempering.

Don't care for plunge attacks and immunities at this point so I'll skip those as well as rinsing, since there's no need for it here since I've not messed with any scary stuff. I also skip attribute tempering since I'm just looking for raw power on the cheap.

Straight to varnishing then!

@DragonBlood already gave the recipes for varnishing, but I'll try explaining how it works.
The game uses a complex formula for calculating offense rating of weapons.

(ClassSlash * matSlash +
ClassHeavy * matHeavy +
ClassForce * matForce +
ClassTech * matTech ) *
(MatEssence + sumEssence) /
(MatEssence * 128 )

The labels with capital first letter (left column) are constants derived from the class of the weapon and primary material used when forging. 128 is a global constant for all weapons.
Weapon's "Slash" characteristic is not to be confused with the homonymously named Armor's stat. I find this label schema confusing, but I'll roll with it for now. More on those later.
All materials have an innate essence mass to provide momentum (in physics terms), on top of their essence resistances. That's MatEssence there. I won't go deep into that.

The lowercase variables (right column) are derived from material on forging and then altered in tempering.
The sumEssence is a sum of all essences imparted onto the weapon in tempering that always starts at 0 though.
We've already dealt with essence tempering, so...

The other 4 variables start forged at the material's own level and then get altered in tempering.
They could seem to stand for damage types but really, they're just arbitrary characteristics there to make tempering more complex (and flexible in a sense) as you'll have to min-max your choice of materials to focus on the most prominent characteristic. That is in fact why I haven't gone for Obsidian over LorantSilver — I don't have the materials that would allow bringing out its full potential: it calls for use of volcanic ash, rather fittingly in geological sense, and I have none.

The Sword weapon class has even constant factors of 32 to all 4 of those characteristics. Same is true for the whole Metals family of primary materials, except for elusive MaiaLead. This is both bad and good at the same time. The good is that it's balanced and forgiving, making any choice of varnish equally effective in regards to targeted characteristic. The bad is that unbalanced materials come "pre-min-maxed" in a way.

Since the process of varnishing is very limited (you can't keep piling boosts indefinitely, just 3 active cards and 1 invisible effect), we get the most out of it by taking advantage of compounding multiplication product. Since we're dealing with a level playing field here, I'll go the Slash route.

Now that you understand what we're dealing with, let's finish with this varnishing:

3x Bumpkin — These will give us 3 Clown cards that, as long as they are in active slots, will each increase Slash and decrease Heavy by 50% of their last value — that's increasing gains with each Clown. Furthermore, it raises ceiling for random inconsequential attribute gains we're getting along the way. Grown best from Yellow + Red seeds.
Loquat-Shoes — Here you just need any filler that will generate a card to displace the last Bumpkin into an active slot. Guides usually recommend Lilipods as a good non-reactive filler but I couldn't be arsed. Loquat-Shoes (and Pear o'Heals) creates a Shoe Spirit card and I'm thoroughly amused by the concept of a spirit dedicated to shoes.
Sharp Claw — This is a "capper". It's a material which will not create a card given the essence levels we have in this weapon but will impart its own effect identical to Bumpkin's Clown card. Unlike Bumpkin, though, since the effect is not coming from a card, it's only active as long as this material was the last one and no tempering took place afterwards. Howlers at Lake Kilma are probably your best bet for dropping these. Could also try Molebears.

And we're done!
https://gamefaqs1.cbsistatic.com/user_image/2/6/9/AAXdX1AAAoGt.jpg https://gamefaqs1.cbsistatic.com/user_image/2/7/0/AAXdX1AAAoGu.jpg
Not too bad going from 25 base offensive rating to 79. More than thrice the power! I was honestly hoping for like 25→31 when I started.
And some random attributes bonuses stuck along the way, including Luck. That's gonna come in handy!
We could raise Luck even higher with Fire Stones and a Hairball but that's out of the scope here.

Can't tackle all of tempering in one forum post, but hopefully I've scratched just a tad beyond the surface and demystified some of the process for anyone finding this useful.
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: Gnessim

Gnessim
2 months ago#24
Gak! Can't edit my post anymore. I could still re-post it again with edits and delete the old one. Alternatively, the forum could stop imposing arbitrary limitations requiring a user to jump through hoops to add useful caveats into their messages.

Anyway, I was gonna add that Kid Dragon on the 9th floor of Tower of Leires also drops Sharp Claws pretty frequently.

And yeah, I equipped my new sword and can now melt every mob I look at in the tower.
Can't wait to counterattack some unlucky boss with it 😆
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: Alltra

Alltra
2 months ago#25
Its always fun to read this stuff, simply because its so overly complicated and the exact mechanics obfuscated so much.
The meaning of life is to suffer and be miserable.
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