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  3. Is it really that good?

User Info: springer73n01

springer73n01
3 months ago#51
Hinxray posted...
Yes, it is really THAT good. I would say it's mandatory to play.

This is how I feel about it too. Cant convince my buddy though lol

User Info: BarneyBosco

BarneyBosco
3 months ago#52
Hinxray posted...
Yes, it is really THAT good. I would say it's mandatory to play.

If they had dropped the souls gimmick I would agree. Geo adds nothing to the game besides frustration. Charms should be discovered in the world and not purchased. Some enemies and bosses need less health. Leave the hardest fights to the optional bosses and areas. As of right now, I love the game but would only recommend it to hardcore gamers. Someone looking just to have fun with a moderate challenge should find another game.
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User Info: Hotel_Security

Hotel_Security
2 months ago#53
If they had dropped the souls gimmick I would agree. Geo adds nothing to the game besides frustration.

It's barely a concern. Unlike Souls games, it's usually very easy to get back to where you died and, in most cases, the Soul isn't even in the bossroom and is waiting right before it. In many cases, you don't even need the lost money.

Also, unlike most Metroid-style games, it autosaves everything you do...you don't even need to get back to the save point. Run to a place, get an item, get killed (or save/quit), and it still saves the item and the map progression and you're warped back to your last save. This is very generous compared to similar Metroid games.

And I don't see the issue with Geo because, otherwise, we'd have no reason to kill most enemies and folks would skip them.

Charms should be discovered in the world and not purchased.

I'm fine with a combination. Give us something to spend that cash on.

Leave the hardest fights to the optional bosses and areas.

I felt they mostly did this. I guess Watcher Knight was pretty tough but that feels like the only one.

As of right now, I love the game but would only recommend it to hardcore gamers. Someone looking just to have fun with a moderate challenge should find another game.

I would agree. I'm not recommending this to casuals. It's not for them. That's why it's so great.
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: lindaluv

lindaluv
2 months ago#54
I enjoyed Valdis Story much more even though it was shorter and the exploration aspect of it was rather small in scope. Honestly the only thing Hollow Knight has going for it is the blind exploration and some choice concepts that a few enjoy while most disliked.

Also the aesthetic and look was very off putting for me sadly T__T.
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User Info: Hotel_Security

Hotel_Security
2 months ago#55
I enjoyed Valdis Story much more

I took a look at this one and it doesn't look bad. A little bummed that it's only for PC but I'll keep an eye out for it. Nice suggestion

Honestly the only thing Hollow Knight has going for it is the blind exploration and some choice concepts that a few enjoy while most disliked

The "only thing?" Really? You mean the amazing variety of charms, multiple loadouts, excellent bossfights, great atmosphere, huge variety of enemies and large variety of places to explore are all things most disliked? Hard to take comments like this seriously when you go so far with the hyperbole.

Also the aesthetic and look was very off putting for me sadly T__T.

The game's gorgeous. I don't know what to tell you. Maybe a Jackson Pollack is more your style.

User Info: Damthiel

Damthiel
2 weeks ago#56
BarneyBosco posted...
If they had dropped the souls gimmick I would agree. Geo adds nothing to the game besides frustration. Charms should be discovered in the world and not purchased. Some enemies and bosses need less health. Leave the hardest fights to the optional bosses and areas. As of right now, I love the game but would only recommend it to hardcore gamers. Someone looking just to have fun with a moderate challenge should find another game.
I just got done with HK and I would have to agree, but since the PS4 version has the DLC installed with it (and I have never played the original version) it's a little difficult for me to draw the line of where the difficulty really starts. For me the platforming and navigation of the game were the more difficult aspects.

From what I can determine of it, the main game's boss fights weren't that difficult, but a lot of them did feel pretty uninspired (in terms of mechanics); most of them seemed to be a re-usage of simply dodging some sort of projectile, whether that's a round or spear-like object. Of course, this is hidden quite well with the artistic style, and I didn't even realize it until I started to think about it.

The DLC bosses are a different thing entirely in terms of difficulty though.

Hotel_Security posted...
It's barely a concern. Unlike Souls games, it's usually very easy to get back to where you died and, in most cases, the Soul isn't even in the bossroom and is waiting right before it. In many cases, you don't even need the lost money.

I've played every Souls game (minus Sekiro), plus just about all Souls-clones (e.g. Nioh) to 100%, and from what I recall, there's a resting spot outside of almost every boss's area. It's either that or there's a shortcut that can be unlocked to make the traversal trivial, and you can literally run straight from the resting spot to the boss without directly engaging an enemy.

This is not what it's like in Hollow Knight. It's a bit off and on in HK; sometimes there are benches that are close enough, but it's not always the case. Even if the boss fight is only a couple of screens away, sometimes the area is difficult to navigate (due to being built like a maze), or it can come with enough environmental hazards to make it a hassle to get back to where you were. Platforming is not even really existent in any 3D Souls game, outside of carefully dropping down cliffs, so I would say getting back to bosses in HK is almost always more difficult.

It didn't ultimately affect me much personally because I'm used to the combat style, so most fights only took a few attempts. But for others that aren't so accustomed to it, that means potentially significantly more attempts. If it's a hassle to get to these proclaimed "excellent bossfights", that's a problem, because the player is a getting hung up on something that is barricading their enjoyment with said boss fight. The enjoyment of any Souls-clone is the learning of the boss and defeating it; if the level design is precluding the player to practice that boss in order to learn it, it's conflicting with the combat design's goal, and thus it's not fulfilling a major part of being a Souls-clone.

I adore the Metroidvania formula, but I also think that HK doesn't even fulfill that formula well either; Metrodvanias are about exploration, but again, the level design is a detriment to it. Being non-linear is one thing, but when the map is contingent upon finding a NPC in an area, that's a bad thing. It doesn't really make any sense that I can buy a Quill to scribble in areas that I have been in....but only if I've already purchased the map from the NPC, as if my character is incapable of drawing the initial boxes of the area.

Since the map NPC can be desirable to find initially, that's what I was usually trying to do first whenever I hit a new area (which does not reinforce exploration). When I did find him, even exploring the rest of it was still a little cumbersome due to not being able to draw out the rest of the area as I was exploring it. When I began the game, I did not realize you could save/quit to get back to your last bench, but it's nonetheless something that is a little ridiculous regardless; the design should have just given an item for players to transport back to the last bench (since we can do it anyway, just indirectly).

If the designer did that, then they would have players that would just exploit buying that item and warping back to the last bench whenever they needed to fill out a portion of the map. If that would be an option, then it makes little sense to have the drawing being tied to resting at a bench; we can do it anyway, it just takes a few extra arbitrary hoops to jump through in order to do it. That's why it's bad design.

All that said, when I gave up and just used a guide that provided the map for me, my enjoyment of the game went up about 10 fold.

I'm not saying it's a bad game. I've played multiple 2D Metroidvanias that have been released within the past couple of years - Ones that try to be Souls-clones (Death's Gambit, Salt and Sanctuary, Blasphemous), and others that don't (Chasm, Iconclasts). As a whole, it certainly stands out, but that's only due to its art, music, and presentation. In terms of gameplay, it's not any better than anything else I've played.

User Info: Hotel_Security

Hotel_Security
2 weeks ago#57
From what I can determine of it, the main game's boss fights weren't that difficult, but a lot of them did feel pretty uninspired (in terms of mechanics); most of them seemed to be a re-usage of simply dodging some sort of projectile, whether that's a round or spear-like object.

I don't know what else the game could have done. There's a wide variety of enemy spells and attacks and, yes, many are going to break down into being projectiles or AoE attacks or fit into a category here and there. I have no idea why this means it was "uninspired" (by the way, people using "uninspired" to describe video games is so overdone and means nothing)...in either case, the boss fights are some of the best in the genre and be tackled in a variety of ways based on your setups. What else could they have done with the mechanics given?

I've played every Souls game (minus Sekiro), plus just about all Souls-clones (e.g. Nioh) to 100%, and from what I recall, there's a resting spot outside of almost every boss's area.

I will happily disagree. There are definitely some close savepoints to Souls bosses, especially with more of this in the recent games...but there are plenty that still require you to run through some enemies to get back to a boss. My point was that HK does very little of this and he instances it does are not even close to as bad as some Souls games.

This is not what it's like in Hollow Knight. It's a bit off and on in HK; sometimes there are benches that are close enough, but it's not always the case.

There's like five bosses that are like this as all in HK...the Soul Master boss being the worst and even that trip can be done in a minute. Even the Dream bosses respawn you right outside and don't even count as a death. Don't be selling me a notion that this is somehow worse in HK since this is plain wrong. You've played every Souls game but you apparently don't remember them.

or it can come with enough environmental hazards to make it a hassle to get back to where you were.

Give an example. I can recall no boss where the platforming was brutal to get back to them. At the worst, there could be some enemies in the way but the vast majority of these can be easily skipped, unlike Dark Souls where this is more difficult. You weren't able to just run away from those horse enemies in the Frigid Outskirts on your 30th attempt on Lud and Zallen.

If it's a hassle to get to these proclaimed "excellent bossfights", that's a problem, because the player is a getting hung up on something that is barricading their enjoyment with said boss fight.

These are all generic comments that don't apply to any actual fights in HK. What are these "excellent bossfights" that are ruined? The best ones are DLC or optional ones and almost none of these have bad checkpoints or are dream fight that respawn you right there after a death. These comments are so generic that they make me think you haven't played the game since they don't actually apply to any specific fights.

I adore the Metroidvania formula, but I also think that HK doesn't even fulfill that formula well either; Metrodvanias are about exploration, but again, the level design is a detriment to it.

This comment comes off as clueless. How is HK not encouraging exploration? You get no map and you get to just feel your way around the map and discover places and you don't just go there because you see a spot on the map. This is ACTUAL blind exploration. And yet you're saying it's not as good as the classics? Feels like you're grasping at criticisms because these don't make sense.

but when the map is contingent upon finding a NPC in an area, that's a bad thing.

No, it's not. It means you have to EXPLORE the area and find him. And it's not like the game doesn't give you plenty of clues to his location by having his pages laying around as a clue. Removing the map adds more to exploring, not less. And once you explore the areas once, only then do you get a peek at what you may have missed and can go back. Not to mention you can mark spots on the map all you want so it's not like you can't track where you're going. You're saying a game has bad exploration because you didn't get a convenient map that holds your hand for you? That has nothing to do with exploring. Seems to me you didn't actually want to explore and just wanted a game that showed you where to go.

Since the map NPC can be desirable to find initially, that's what I was usually trying to do first whenever I hit a new area (which does not reinforce exploration).

You are literally "exploring" an area to find a map guy. How is this not "reinforcing" exploration? You don't explain ANY of this. This gripe is you taking a mechanic you personally didn't like and pretending it had some great meta effect on the game and this is incorrect. You just didn't like the mechanic and it's okay to say you didn't like having no maps. Just don't disguise this behind some phony "reinforcement of exploration" nonsense.

even exploring the rest of it was still a little cumbersome due to not being able to draw out the rest of the area as I was exploring it.

Get a pen and paper then. Or draw it on your phone. Or use the in-game map markers. You have plenty of options. This isn't rocket science. Folks who actually like exploring would think of these.

the design should have just given an item for players to transport back to the last bench (since we can do it anyway, just indirectly).

This gripe is pointless. Saving and quitting has exactly the same effect. You don't need a item.

All that said, when I gave up and just used a guide that provided the map for me, my enjoyment of the game went up about 10 fold.

Of course it did. Because it had everything to do with you wanting to just make the game easier so you were happy with the guide holding your hand. You talk up exploring but you wanted nothing to do with it.

I'm not saying it's a bad game.

You just spent multiple paragraphs saying it is. You ripped the save system as being worse than the Souls series when this is laughably false, you bashed the bossfights despite them being excellent for the genre, you whined about the map system which is fine, and you accused the game of not encouraging exploration when it has some of the best out there with tons of places to go to. You didn't say a single positive thing about it.

Not only were the gripes endlessly negative, many of them weren't even true and wasn't based on any aspect on the game. The gripes are so out there that it seriously makes you look like you never played it or you quit it after a short time and didn't actually see most of it.

Ones that try to be Souls-clones (Death's Gambit, Salt and Sanctuary, Blasphemous), and others that don't (Chasm, Iconclasts). As a whole, it certainly stands out, but that's only due to its art, music, and presentation. In terms of gameplay, it's not any better than anything else I've played.

If the gameplay in HK isn't better, smoother, faster, deeper, and more engaging than S&S then you're just hopelessly biased and trying to bash a popular game to get attention. Go be edgy somewhere else.
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