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  3. The Ranged Enthusiast -- Discussion and Research into Ranged Combat in Nioh-2

User Info: AlekTrev006

AlekTrev006
5 days ago#21
dthomas125 posted...
I'm at 15/13 with my rifle rounds this morning. I think you may be onto something about it being tied to clan rank because last night I was at 14/12 and this morning the clan battle info updated and I'm at 15/13.

Yes ! I just wanted to let you know (as an update) that I too saw a boost up, with Saika...and now entered a mission with a crazy 16 Regular / 14 Roaring rounds ! CRAAAZY ! Keep in mind, with Nioh-1, very late End Game / Level-750, floor 700+ Abyss, my character could only walk around with 11 Regular / 9 Roaring Gun (IIRC).

To have literally 30 shots on-hand, not counting any Untouched Ammo whatsoever, is just phenomenal, and makes this build concept almost instantly more viable than it was in N-1 (or at least, more viable Sooner - due to just having more ammo on-hand, to fall back on // not to mention essentially Unlimited Refills from the Kodama Bazaar - allowing you to always have a chance at restocking via Frugality). Running out of ammo in an Abyss Plane was a real concern at some points, in N-1... if luck was not with your Shadowround %'s -- but with Kodama Shrine refills, here in N-2, that's essentially never a concern any longer.

dthomas125 posted...
This procs quite often for me.


Yes - I just got the full set (only Blues, at the moment) from having to go back into Pervading Waters mission again (forgot one Kodama, lol).... and am happy to see that both the Bullseye Life Recovery amount, and (more importantly) the Chance to Reduce Enemy Defense %, both seem to scale up, with the level of your Gear !

So...instead of the starting 50% listed in the Set Screen, my current value is 56.3% (gear level only 76). This suggests you could probably top out at like 75%, with high ranked Divine pieces - which is quite nice.

dthomas125 posted...
Yes with Yatagarasu set I'm sure. I'm hoping we can get close to that without needing all 7 pieces of Yatagarasu though. Have you (or anyone) seen "untouched ammo" on a soul core? I've yet to find one.


I have not seen one yet (on a Soul Core) - but I did want to share how I crunched the early numbers, yesterday - on just how much Untouched Ammo we can reasonably achieve:

If you get to end game Divine Armor skill transfers and manage to move 4.9% (becomes 5.4% when maxed) Untouched Ammo stats to every piece of the Yatagarasu Gear, you'd get 27% - JUST from the gear.

Then consider you should always have Untouched Ammo on your actual Ranged Weapons - giving another 5.4%, no matter which you are aiming and firing at an enemy...

That increases it to 32.4%...

With Accessory Tempering (wonderful addition), we no longer have to wait for random chance to give us one with U-Ammo, and instead we can ROLL it intentionally, which is amazing ! That means we can include an additional 4.9% x 2 = 9.8% Untouched Ammo from them ! (I am assuming we cannot 'level up" Accessories, even the Divine or Ethereal ones, so you aren't going to see the 4.9's become 5.4's at 999/999 Familiarity, as happens with all other pieces of gear)

----

With just the gear then, all decked out for U-Ammo, you would be walking around with 42.2% ! BUT WAIT....there's more ! ;-)~

We have to recall we get a flat 20% from the 7-piece Yatagarasu Set bonus itself -- meaning 62.2%.... but wait...we're not done yet, because we also have to consider the boost the actual Yatagarasu Spirit gives you, in Nioh-2, as well ! ...

  • This brief video (not mine) shows the character getting the spirit so you can verify the stat effects of the spirit (visible at 1:30 of the video if you move forwards and pause there):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddkW9XHmJZY

--------

I am VERY happy to see that Yatagarasu gives a flat 20% Untouched Ammo bonus, at his base level ! This is actually (if memory serves) much more than what you could get at start, in Nioh-1 ! There, I think he only started out at +10% U-Ammo...and it only MAXED at Level-30 Guardian Spirit (a lot of Amrita and time dumped into him, in the NG+ cycles) at +19% ! So this means the "starting" Nioh-2 version is actually MORE U-Ammo % than the final possible version you could get in Nioh-1 -- wonderful !

He also imbues your Ranged shots with a bit of Fire Element, and adds Anima Charge based on those ranged hits too - which is quite useful.

------

With him considered into the equation... you could reasonably expect to walk around with appx 82.2% Untouched Ammo, by the time you reached the 'end game' ! This could actually be tweaked even higher, if Tempering works like it did in N-2, where you could roll 3 of the skills at once, and possibly get a "perfect" roll of 5.0% U-Ammo, which would max at 5.5%, instead of the usual 5.4%. This is a level of min-maxing that is largely unnecessary though, especially given how much base ammo we can walk around with now, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I just find the fact we will be able to move around with 80% Untouched Ammo, WITHOUT Shadowround Talismans even being in the game (we think) at present, is just fantastic ! The sky's the limit, with Yatagarasu :-)

User Info: Darius87

Darius87
4 days ago#22
dthomas125 posted...
With shadowround in Nioh1 you didn't even need the +20% unlimited ammo from Yatagarasu. But I haven't seen a shadowround equivalent in Nioh2 so Yatagarasu might be the way to go during the body of the mission and switching too Saika for the boss fight just for the added bonus to rifle damage. I just farmed him yesterday on pervading waters mission. Took me all day to get the armor text and the rifle text to drop. The problem is he will drop other random texts. I got the rifle on my 3rd try, then I got 3 other unrelated weapon texts before getting the armor after about 40 tries. Pro tip there is a shrine just before the fight with him so I "left game" and copied my save file to a usb then reloaded it when I didn't get the drop I wanted. It's kinda cheap but it beats running through that mission 40+ times.
You don't have to do that. After killing the boss if you didn't get the drop just exit the game without finishing the mission and select continue, you will appear in the shrine pre boss. The game only saves at shrines or when finishing the mission.
(edited 4 days ago)

User Info: dthomas125

dthomas125
4 days ago#23
Darius87 posted...
You don't have to do that. After killing the boss if you didn't get the drop just exit the game without finishing the mission and select continue, you will appear in the shrine pre boss. The game only saves at shrines or when finishing the mission.

Was wondering about that.
China is putting up facial recognition AI cameras in schools to monitor the moods of their students.

User Info: dthomas125

dthomas125
4 days ago#24
AlekTrev006 posted...
Yatagarasu Spirit

Nice. I was wondering if Yatagarasu spirit was going to be back. This is great news, with your calculations I think I may be able to skip the Yatagarasu armor when I get closer to end game.
China is putting up facial recognition AI cameras in schools to monitor the moods of their students.

User Info: Young_Caesar

Young_Caesar
4 days ago#25
Darius87 posted...

You don't have to do that. After killing the boss if you didn't get the drop just exit the game without finishing the mission and select continue, you will appear in the shrine pre boss. The game only saves at shrines or when finishing the mission.

Does this not alleviate the loading issue? Might as well finish it if you still see loading screens.
Juicy

User Info: dthomas125

dthomas125
4 days ago#26
Flying Bolt Soul Core has a built in "Reduced Movement (Ranged Weapon Hit) @%" which could be useful as well.
China is putting up facial recognition AI cameras in schools to monitor the moods of their students.

User Info: dthomas125

dthomas125
4 days ago#27
AlekTrev006 posted...
This brief video (not mine) shows the character getting the spirit so you can verify the stat effects of the spirit (visible at 1:30 of the video if you move forwards and pause there):
I just unlocked it. FYI one of the prereq missions (the aberrant mage) needs 10 onmyo mage kills to unlock. I farmed them very quickly on the sun sets on mount tenno mission (the map is actually the 1st mission from the final beta). 2nd shrine, unlock the shortcut, drop down at the bridge make a right to the cave there are 2 in the cave, i just used a travel amulet and killed them multiple times.

The third word mission is a duel with Saika Magoichi (at the same arena as the two kings duel from n1). This would've been a much easier place to farm his texts I wish I would've waited. The bright side is that it will be a really fast and easy way to stack roaring gun ammo as the tea house clan donaton is Yatagarasu armor.

China is putting up facial recognition AI cameras in schools to monitor the moods of their students.
(edited 4 days ago)

User Info: AlekTrev006

AlekTrev006
4 days ago#28
dthomas125 posted...
I just unlocked it. FYI one of the prereq missions (the aberrant mage) needs 10 onmyo mage kills to unlock. I farmed them very quickly on the sun sets on mount tenno mission (the map is actually the 1st mission from the final beta). 2nd shrine, unlock the shortcut, drop down at the bridge make a right to the cave there are 2 in the cave, i just used a travel amulet and killed them multiple times.

The third word mission is a duel with Saika Magoichi (at the same arena as the two kings duel from n1). This would've been a much easier place to farm his texts I wish I would've waited. The bright side is that it will be a really fast and easy way to stack roaring gun ammo as the tea house clan donaton is Yatagarasu armor.


oh, Brilliant info, and thanks for that confirmation, Thomas ! This should be wonderful, as you said, for easy stocking of Roaring Gun, even without Frugality getting rolling for you (later in the game, with higher U-Ammo %) :-)

Just for the sake of New Ranged Enthusiast's coming late to the party (who maybe didn't play Nioh-1, or see our massive thread discussions there, on the intricacies of that part of the combat system, I will mention the way the Range to Target affects your shots. (the %'s seem to be roughly the same from Nioh-1, from what I could see at a glance - though formal testing can be done later on, if a precise figure is desired)

----------

Basically, there is a hidden bonus in the game when you catch a target "Unaware". The first strike on them (Melee or Ranged / magic, etc) - when they don't know you are there (typically when the compass has not flashed red and the human or monster goes like "huh !?" / growls in rage, etc) will strike notably harder than follow up attacks / shots.

This is important when attacking with Ranged weaponry, because Rifle and Cannon (at least) are rather noisy, and if you attack with them at too close a distance, you will see the compass flash as the shot strikes the target (and you'll lose the "unaware" damage bonus). You'll probably still blow apart the target, if it's a weak enemy - or a human who you are hitting in the head, but against stronger Yokai, you really want as much bonus damage as you can, from that first hit - so proper distancing is very helpful.

this old reddit thread from Nioh-1 covers all this extensively, and as I said above, it appears this part of the game mechanics was carried over almost fully, from the original game:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Nioh/comments/6oye9v/ranged_weapons_extensive_testing/

--

To that end, the "ideal" ranges for your weapons are as follows (colors refer to the aiming Circle you see when you pull out a Bow, Rifle, or Cannon):

Bow:

  • Bright Red (Point Blank Range) = Full Damage with your arrow hits


  • Pinkish (Medium Range) = Full Damage with your arrow hits


  • Yellow - (Long Range) appx 70% of full damage (30% penalty)


  • White (Extreme Range) only appx. 45% of dmg. (55% penalty)


It's important to mention that ALL Bow shots are "silent" - and will never risk alerting an enemy, regardless of the range you are at, compared to the target, when you fire.

-----

Rifle:

  • Bright Red (Point Blank Range) = 70% of Full Damage (30% penalty - the reason for this is that your rifle is Too LOUD - lol, and the sound of the shot alerts them a split second before the round strikes, thus you lose your "Unaware Enemy" bonus.


  • Pinkish (Medium Range) = Full Damage with your Rifle hits (note that to get this you still have to be slightly farther back... what I mean is if you are close enough to see Bright Red / point-blank distance, and then move back to just enough to get it to turn Pink - the game may still consider you "on the border line" and the shot can still sometimes alert the foe, prematurely. I would always try to be "just a few steps farther back" from that coloration difference, to ensure they don't "hear it" coming ;-)


  • Yellow - (Long Range) appx 40% of full damage (60% penalty)


  • White (Extreme Range) only appx. 30% of dmg. (70% penalty)


** one Very important note on the Rifle is that these figures above are all for "regular" rounds. When you load Roaring Gun special ammo, something wonderful happens ! Those rounds have Zero distance penalty / drop-off, and retain full 100% damage at "Pink / Yellow / White" ranges ! You will still see a damage drop off from your norm if you fire at "point-blank" range, due to the shot alerting them typically. Roaring Gun rounds also penetrate targets and can go on to strike foes beyond (I had a few videos showing this up, and it's the same principal in Nioh-2).

-----

Cannon:

  • Bright Red (Point Blank Range) = 70% of full damage


  • Pinkish (Medium Range) = 70% of full damage


  • Yellow - (Long Range) = Full damage with your Cannon hits


  • White (Extreme Range) = Full damage with your Cannon hits


In other words, you want to ideally be firing your Cannon at long ranges, to get the most possible damage, and ensure a lot of 1-hit KO's. If you have to though, and are pressed in close by a fast foe, feel free to fire away, as even 70% of a Cannon hit is considerably hard-hitting.

(hope this rough summary is helpful to newcomers to the game / ranged combat !)
(edited 4 days ago)

User Info: AlekTrev006

AlekTrev006
3 days ago#29
* minor update on one aspect of this whole discussion:

I just defeated the boss of Honnoji and actually finished things off with several Rifle hits - using a Roaring Gun blast to seal the deal, which was wonderful ;-)

What I observed is that the Ranged Hits = Defense reduction, granted (56% chance with my level of gear) from the Yatagarasu Set, seems rather strong (not Weakness spell strong, but still noticeable).

I was doing "normal" Rifle round shots of about 875-900... and when the Defense break triggered, the follow-up shots did appx 1300. I then switched to Roaring Gun, later in the fight and dealt 1900+, with one of my blasts. Quite nice.

I did die once, but took the foe down on the second go-around, after I'd seen the moves and such.

---------

@dthomas125 , did you see how much the Flying Bolt % caps out at (or can you estimate), at full Rank-9 Core ? I'm curious if it'd be viable, but it depends on how often it procs, of course.

---------

One other thing I'm considering is that some reports suggest you cannot roll an Unlimited Ninjutsu (and presumably Untouched Ammo) on a Yasakani Magatama (end-game accessory for most builds). This would be ....bothersome, but not life-shattering, I'd think.

If you still used it, you'd be losing 4.9% of your 'possible' U-Ammo-%, but if you still were walking around with appx 80%, I don't think it'd be 'that' noticeable.

However, we have to ask if there's any one-piece bonuses from other sets that are actually 'worth it' for us..

The one possible thought I had was the Shibata set, as it's the only one with Hatchets as part of it. However, the bonus is a rather modest HP boost -- so...better than nothing ? (shrug)

* I think the Hatchets "guaranteed infinite ammo" concept is so strong (and freely accessed by anyone) that including them as part of an end-game Ranged build is a solid concept. Granted, there may be other weapons with sets that could work, or something in the DLC that's clearly better, but I'm probably going to end up rocking something like:

Haccho Nenbutsu
Shibata Set Hatchets

Ravenwing Rifle
End Game Cannon

Yatagarasu Gear x 5

Yasakani
Some other Accessory with 4.9% U-Ammo rolled

* * actually, listing it out like this makes me realize we actually free up yet another slot - since the 7-pc Saika's gets reduced to just needing 6... meaning the Rifle and the Armor pieces gets you to the full bonus... so you actually could mix in something else, if you have some ideas on a good fit :-)

User Info: lPixels

lPixels
3 days ago#30
A lot great information in this topic, good stuff!

Just hit 80% untouched ammo today and it’s been silly strong combined with anima charge bonus on ranged hits. Otakemaru Soul Core does some serious damage, and pairs great with rifle/cannon playstyle since it can hit from a long range.
PSN ID: aQualityBuild
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