Combat Mechanics Topic#2:Time to define the hack and slash genre. Devil May Cry 5

The objective of the topic is to get a working definition of what a hack and slasher game is.

Origins of the term:
The term hack and slash in the context of gaming originated from tabletop games where you picked a character that used melee weapons. The early real time RPGs were basically tabletops in video game form. Then Diablo came in which had most of the gameplay in this form and it started to define the term hack and slash. Diablo is a top down stat based, real time, command and cooldown based auto attack game about strategic preparation.

So that would mean any other top down game with auto attacking like Baldurs Gate, Planetscape Torment, Torchlight, Path of Exile, Divinity Original Sin or Dragon Age Origins and even League of Legends are hack and slashers right?
However those games are not identified as hack and slasher now!

Where DMCs combat come from:
Its very hard to pinpoint where DMC’s combat came from. The common classification is that they were side scrolling beat em ups -which still sounds wrong cause those were arcade games with co op. DMC more resembles old Zelda and Castlevania and . . .Karateka as those were single player games on home consoles.
I cant even dig out which was the first 3D action games with melee combat. I found games like Prince of Persia 3D, Tenchu Stealth Assasins and. . . Nigtmare Creatures.
Can someone help me with this?

Anyway Capcom's first take at this would be Onimusha Warlords. See Onimusha came out in January and DMC came out in August 2001.
After this other games with similar action came out like lament of Innocence, Sands of Time, Shinobi, Ninja Gaiden reboot. As you can see those original beat em ups made a transition to the 3D platform.
Soon Santa Monica made a casual and mainstream version of DMC called God of War and the genre got popular.
And people started calling those games hack and slashers cause . . . . .they look like the 3D combat from isometric Diablo games rather than side scrolling games?

And thats how the word hack and slash got adopted into DMC's genre. The name belongs to us now.

What type of game does a hack and slasher refer to?
A hack and slasher is a beat em up/action adventure game that has translated into the 3D realm.
*Must not be confused with tabletop/Diablo style RPGs.

Now that we got names out of the way lets delve into the mechanics!
Why Devil May Cry? While DMC was not the first 3D melee action game it is the genre definer, the progenitor. The game that set it apart from others.
Venn diagrams:
Do you know what venn diagrams are? Suppose Bob has apples, oranges and bananas. Joe has watermelons, chicken and bananas. So in a venn diagram Joe and Bob have bananas in commom. Can you see where this is going?
The mechanics established in DMC crosses mechanics with many other games in the venn diagram. Those games have other elements that may not be a part of DMC’s diagram.

Now I will present the main idea behind the topic:
To establish the venn diagram that contains the elements of that define a hack and slash game.
This is what I can conclude:
3D Action game:DUH. So that people cant call Diablo or turn based games hack and slasher (and it’s only Diablo nobody called Planetscape a hack and slasher) And that its about fighting enemies.
Real time:You can manually negate an attack after the enemy executes it. Negation process not tied to cooldowns or resource bars. Attacking is also manual and not tied to cooldowns/resource bars.
Melee weapon focused:You mostly use melee weapons. Most enemies should be damageable by melee weapons in some way.
Movement done by joy sticks(or buttons on PC)
Bosses exist.
Repeated strings of attacks that are different and distinct: Some kind of combos exist.
Jumping exists, and at lease one attack can be executed during the ‘airborne’ phase
Some form of juggles, you can stunlock the enemies using repeated moves.

Do you agree with this? What else should you add to the venn diagram?

For me personally, what separate a good hack'nslash to a great hack'nslash, is the high skill ceiling potential needed in order to execute advance techniques or combos. Weapon switch combo, jump cancelling, animation cancelling, i-frames usage, etc.

Even though I can't do a lot of the advance techniques or combos like Donguri, I appreciate the fact that a hack'nslash game can accommodate both casual players as well as more skillful players.

I dont know how much luck you'll have with defining a hacknslash. Ive seen some prett

Jumping
What if it doesnt exist? What about GH, Onimusha, Killer is Dead, Lollipop Chainsaw?

Actually LC kinda has jumping in the form of a dodge that puts you in an airborne state that allows follow up attacks. Not sure if this can really be considered a true jump but works almost the same way.

Juggles
Some dont have juggles. Onimusha doesnt (though DoD did to an extent). LC doesnt either.

Rising Zan belongs with the first 3D action games right?

If a game is focused on going around levels slashing various enemies, it’s a hack n slash to me.

Bloodborne to me is a hack n slash with a different pacing than usual, mixed with RPG and Metroidvania elements.

Another thing is games nowadays can’t be classified under just one genre.

>Time to define
What's the point, people won't reach a common ground and even if some do, you'll just run into people throwing the HnS term "incorrectly" everywhere else.

>any other top down game with auto attacking
Uh, no. Even games like Etrian Odissey are HnS because they contain actual Hack and Slashing.

>However those games are not identified as hack and slasher now!
Yes, people have been using the term in the incorrectly for over a decade.

>The name belongs to us now.
Which isn't really an achievement, no one really needs the "is this a JPRG" bull**** that plagues any JRPG(ish) game.

>A hack and slasher is a beat em up/action adventure game that has translated into the 3D realm.
Is it really? I see many 2d games that are way HnSy than something like NuGoW.

GeminiEntity posted...

I just keep it simple. Hack and slash is pretty much with weapons, where as a beat em up is with fists. Can be 2D or 3D, all listed as action games in general just with emphasis on up close combat.

What if you have two playable characters, one specialized in fists and another on swords?

RedDusk posted...

Another thing is games nowadays can’t be classified under just one genre.

Yeah they can actually, once you strip the game down to it's core then pretty much every game can be boiled down to one of the most basic genres, the problem starts when people start trying to fit all the games into all the possible genres simply because of one or more elements of the game or start creating more and more subgenres.

New_Birdman posted...

Jumping
What if it doesnt exist? What about GH, Onimusha, Killer is Dead, Lollipop Chainsaw?
Juggles
Some dont have juggles. Onimusha doesnt (though DoD did to an extent). LC doesnt either.

Onimusha is pre DMC so you cant expect it to play that way.
KID and LC are not h&s.
GH nope.

GeminiEntity posted...

Hack and slash is pretty much with weapons, where as a beat em up is with fists. Can be 2D or 3D, all listed as action games in general just with emphasis on up close combat.

This is the type of loose generalization that has created this confusion.
You can do Bewoulf runs in DMC, so thats a beat em up now?
You can do CQC runs in MGS3, so thats also a beatem up?
What about Knife runs in RESI4? thats a hack and slasher now right?
RedDusk posted...

If a game is focused on going around levels slashing various enemies, it’s a hack n slash to me.

Hitman and Tomb Raider lets you use sharp tools where you slash enemies.
Hitman and Tomb Raider are hack and slasher now.
5hadows posted...

Is it really? I see many 2d games that are way HnSy than something like NuGoW.

The dimentiodefferntiability itself is the determinational variable.