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  3. Lance's damage is Trash?

User Info: Deaga

Deaga
1 week ago#141
Rhiethreal posted...
Do speed runners have super fragile egos or something? I said like a hundred times now that it wasn't a speed run.

It's not impressive even for playing casually. It's just a Banbaro capture. Taking 6 minutes isn't proving anything is good, that's just the minimum baseline anyone would expect.

Unless your entire point is proving that Lance meets the minimum baseline of a decent weapon. Then yay, I guess? I'm not sure what you think people are talking about Lance, though. I don't think anyone in here was trashing the weapon saying it's absolutely useless garbage. Except maybe for DukeLukewarm, as Panthera mentioned back at the beginning of the thread.

Shameless self-plug for my MH speedrunning youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/DeASDFga

User Info: Rhiethreal

Rhiethreal
1 week ago#142
Deaga posted...
Unless your entire point is proving that Lance meets the minimum baseline of a decent weapon.
Yes, that is what I have been saying the entire thread.

Enclosure posted...
The better metric is all runs, not cherry picked best rng runs.
Which is what the run in the first post is. I had a 5 gold box quest for Ban, I ran it, and I post the the first run as is.
http://rhiethreal.deviantart.com/

User Info: valikkster

valikkster
1 week ago#143
Sirk posted...
Can you explain what you mean? Usually speed runs are very efficient.

So the thing is, this is counterintuitively a false statement. We, the viewer, see the run which is the fruit of the Speedrunners labor. What is the labor? HUNDREDS of failures. Hours of time wasted on restarts and flukes. The final successful run is itself a testament to the absurdity of perfection in MHW due to the time sink.

Speedrunning is probably the worst metric you can measure efficiency by on an average, or even above average level of play.

A better measure of efficiency would be a triple of (risk, completion time, fun). Speedrunning anything has maxed out risk, minimal completion time, and IMHO probably little to no fun except for that one run where you succeed. I would say for an average player however, the lance has minimal risk, average clear times, and average to above average fun factor.

But that's just spitballing.
(edited 1 week ago)

User Info: Panthera

Panthera
1 week ago#144
It's not like speed runners are morally obligated to restart whenever they make a mistake, they do it if they feel like it. Calling speed runs inefficient is misleading. The end product is a highly efficient run. The process to get there is countless runs that are highly efficient unless the player chooses to sacrifice them because they're looking for something even better.
Meow!

User Info: Rhiethreal

Rhiethreal
1 week ago#145
valikkster posted...
So the thing is, this is counterintuitively a false statement. We, the viewer, see the run which is the fruit of the Speedrunners labor. What is the labor? HUNDREDS of failures. Hours of time wasted on restarts and flukes. The final successful run is itself a testament to the absurdity of perfection in MHW due to the time sink.

Speedrunning is probably the worst metric you can measure efficiency by on an average, or even above average level of play.

A better measure of efficiency would be a triple of (risk, completion time, fun). Speedrunning anything has maxed out risk, minimal completion time, and IMHO probably little to no fun except for that one run where you succeed. I would say for an average player however, the lance has minimal risk, average clear times, and average to above average fun factor.

But that's just spitballing.
Exactly!

I would probably break it down into this instead:

Personal Fun, Risk, Ease of Use, Uptime (time spent attacking versus maintenance/avoidance), item reliance, Clear Times
http://rhiethreal.deviantart.com/

User Info: Sirk

Sirk
1 week ago#146
valikkster posted...
So the thing is, this is counterintuitively a false statement. We, the viewer, see the run which is the fruit of the Speedrunners labor. What is the labor? HUNDREDS of failures. Hours of time wasted on restarts and flukes. The final successful run is itself a testament to the absurdity of perfection in MHW due to the time sink.
You're missing the point. The end result of a speedrun is the upper end of what that class can do. That's true for every class, and some classes do better than others. Speedruns measure the upper end of every weapon's abilities, and Lance is low on the list.

The number of attempts has nothing to do with it. Ten attempts for Lance and a thousand for HBG, does not make any difference if Lance is far behind the times of HBG.
It takes both rain and shine to make a rainbow.

User Info: Rhiethreal

Rhiethreal
1 week ago#147
Sirk posted...
You're missing the point. The end result of a speedrun is the upper end of what that class can do. That's true for every class, and some classes do better than others. Speedruns measure the upper end of every weapon's abilities, and Lance is low on the list.

The number of attempts has nothing to do with it. Ten attempts for Lance and a thousand for HBG, does not make any difference if Lance is far behind the times of HBG.
No, that isn't the point.

Speed runs set unrealistic expectations. They might show the theoretical max damage output, but the result is unrealistic because of all those resets. If you reset (save scum) 100 times to get that result because you completely forgo any defensive abilities and cart 100 times on a 3 cart quest then the results are not realistic.

They also don't measure anything about the weapon's upper end abilities other than pure damage. That means things that aren't purely damage focused are rated lower by default. They do nothing to look at defensive options like Lance's shield, because if they miss a dodge, they can just reset anyway. They do nothing to look at something like a hunting horn's supportive skills unless they specifically increase the weapon's damage.

To a speed runner, triple carting means nothing because they will just save scum and get the quests back. Triple carting definitely matters to the standard player, especially in something like an online Siege.
http://rhiethreal.deviantart.com/

User Info: Leodon

Leodon
1 week ago#148
Rhiethreal posted...
Personal Fun, Risk, Ease of Use, Uptime (time spent attacking versus maintenance/avoidance), item reliance, Clear Times

Efficiency is a concept that applies more to speed-running than casual gaming. You need to be efficient with your choices in a speed-run to obtain the lowest times possible. Efficiency goes up the more you play like a speed-runner and less like a casual.

Speed runs are some of the best examples of efficient gameplay. Whether or not it took one try or a thousand doesn't detract from this.

Risk and clear times are things that factor into efficiency but personal fun has nothing to do with it. Efficiency doesn't care if you find the activity fun or not.
(edited 1 week ago)

User Info: Rhiethreal

Rhiethreal
1 week ago#149
Leodon posted...
Risk and clear times are things that factor into efficiency but personal fun has nothing to do with it. Efficiency doesn't care if you find the activity fun or not.
Debatable. In most cases, I would agree that fun is not a factor. However I would argue that the end goal is a factor in discussions of efficiency, and the end goal of games is having fun. Therefore, fun is a factor in the case of games.

Leodon posted...
Efficiency is a concept that applies more to speed-running than casual gaming. (. . .) Efficiency goes up the more you play like a speed-runner and less like a casual.
Not true. It is a not an either or. It is a scale/curve. Casuals are one extreme, and speed runners are the other extreme. The most efficient option lies someone in the middle.

If casuals were on the extreme right, and speed runners were the extreme left side of the scale, I do believe the most efficient point would be a bit left of center. However, I the most efficient point would NOT be all the way to the left most extreme where speed runner sit.

Leodon posted...
Whether or not it took one try or a thousand doesn't detract from this.
This is 100% false.
http://rhiethreal.deviantart.com/
(edited 1 week ago)

User Info: Sirk

Sirk
1 week ago#150
Rhiethreal posted...
No, that isn't the point.

Speed runs set unrealistic expectations. They might show the theoretical max damage output, but the result is unrealistic because of all those resets. If you reset (save scum) 100 times to get that result because you completely forgo any defensive abilities and cart 100 times on a 3 cart quest then the results are not realistic.

They also don't measure anything about the weapon's upper end abilities other than pure damage. That means things that aren't purely damage focused are rated lower by default. They do nothing to look at defensive options like Lance's shield, because if they miss a dodge, they can just reset anyway. They do nothing to look at something like a hunting horn's supportive skills unless they specifically increase the weapon's damage.

To a speed runner, triple carting means nothing because they will just save scum and get the quests back. Triple carting definitely matters to the standard player, especially in something like an online Siege.
I thought we were talking about whether a weapon class has high DPS or not.

No one is arguing that a weapon class can't have non-DPS utility.
It takes both rain and shine to make a rainbow.
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