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  3. What about Monster Hunter is "inaccessible" to newcomers?

User Info: MrSmi7h

MrSmi7h
2 years ago#71
Terron145 posted...
MrSmi7h posted...
MOST of the positioning and timings for either attack or defense requires a GUIDE, no matter what you're trying to argue.
You're not providing any tangible evidence to support this. How do you explain the players who were clearing Tigrex's Quests before the creation of Naijiao's video? Just because a tutorial is created does not mean that the majority of people needed that tutorial.

MrSmi7h posted...
Most players wont even know about I-frames if they don't Google it, because they're close to non-existant and they're not introduced as a mechanic in any way...
Yes, this is true, which is why any reasonable person would equate "dodging" to "moving the Hell out of the way", which in turn equates to "positioning" - something you can learn through trial-and-error like I did; I went through my first 50 hours into this series without searching for any outside sources and learned these nuanced mechanics just fine.

- A notable exception arises if you are coming into Monster Hunter with a Soulsborne game beneath your belt, in which case you don't even need to look up i-framing because the concept is already deeply seated in your very being. The only thing you have to worry about is how long it takes for you to realize that i-framing is more difficult to perform in Monster Hunter, and that it is something you don't rely on nearly as heavily as you would in Soulsborne.

Sure, my i-frame rolls were incredibly inconsistent - they still are, actually - but there was nothing I needed a bloody guide for. I would include myself among the average gaming populace in terms of skill, perhaps even among the below average.

You are making the game's challenges sound far more difficult than they actually are, a notion that becomes all the more apparent as the series progressed beyond Generation 2, and that's coming from some clown who didn't actually play Freedom Unite until after going through Gen 3 and 4 beforehand.



This is a very late reply but whatever, as said i-frames are quite old, before Demon's Souls, or Monster Hunter for that matter, you have I-rolls on DMC for example, still not the first game doing that.

Of course it's possible to kill Tigrex without a perfect chargue guide, POSSIBLE, specially the Elder one which like every elder practically kills himself. But later on is viable? Intuitive? Fair? Fun? No, no, no, and no.

Most people will get through it without even realizing the gap on the charge or the incredibly gimmicky angling for attacks, which is factually atrocious game design and learning curve. Yeah, you can get through G-rank without learning s***, that's how BAD it is.

I understand the fact that position is your main tool, instead of dodge-tanking everything in your face, yet still i-framing is very needed in a lot of situations, and the right positioning on half the battles is weird and counterintuitive beyond words and it's not presented or stablished by any means

I'm sorry but it's just inexcusable.

*For some background info, I started with Freedom 1 and currently training for a speedrun on Mhfu, I mean from the beginning to Uka, if possible under 18 hours solo for now, I still need some testing through.
Dark Souls 3 Cleric PvP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP5UOlv3MNA

User Info: Uta

Uta
2 years ago#72
I don't quite remember when I first gave Monster Hunter a try, but I'm pretty sure it was just before MH4U released. I was very interested in this game, but all I knew about it were that the gameplay had you fighting almost exclusively boss-type monsters and that it was very hard. So I downloaded the demo for 3U and Lagombi promptly kicked my ass.

A) I did not understand why my Stamina kept depleting with time, and didn't realize Steak would fix it.
B) I couldn't figure out how to reload my Gunlance
C) The Gunlance itself was so slow I kept getting knocked around, unable to avoid attacks and my combos were constantly interrupted by Lagombi sprinting away from me.
D) Inventory management such as Sharpening was practically impossible for me.

These are all things that I think are fair struggles for a first time player. The board members at the time sympathized saying that Lagombi is a bit much for brand new players, and that the Gunlance was not an especially good choice. They taught me combos, how to reload, and that sheathing and unsheathing was important to trying to keep up.

I then did a little bit better each time. I lost maybe three or or four more times after that but I eventually cleared the hunt. Then I moved onto MH4U once that came out and had a blast for quite a while. I alternated between Gunlance, Heavy Bowgun, and Insect Glaive, to mixed results. I was carried by AGGL to G-Rank, I solo'd with IG to properly learn the game to HR, and finally considered myself good once I solo'd with HBG to G-Rank. (Whoo, those Elder Dragons were brutal. Teostra specifically)

Along the way I hit a couple of walls. Great Jaggi stopped me in my tracks the first few times (even to this day, I swear an Apex Jaggi would be worse than Deviljho). Then Tigrex, then Gore Magala, then Caravaneer's Challenge. With time and effort I cleared those hurdles.

But I definitely didn't do it "alone". I asked for help. I used resources like Kiranico. I watched other Hunters when I struggled. My fights might have been solo but the community got me to where I eventually got.

All of which is to say, that Monster Hunter is not new player friendly. There are a LOT of archaic or weird game design choices that many players struggle with. To this day I have friends who are upset at me for trying to get them into the game.They were intrigued because I made the hunts look easy, and a lot of monsters I could just style on at that point. Then they try and then giving up early on because they hate committing to animations (Potions being the biggest offender, but anything that locks you in place for even half a second; almost everything that is, was annoying to them)

Stamina management, sharpening weapons, grabbings maps, restocking potions and bullets and buff items. All of these systems are not immediately intuitive and the game seldom, if ever shows you how they work. Almost all of the information is in the game somewhere, but it never really takes the time to point it out for you.

MHW seems to be taking steps in the right direction to make this game more accessible. I just hope it's not so far that the game becomes challenge-less.
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.

User Info: Stra7agos

Stra7agos
2 years ago#73
pyrohamster2 posted...
nuke2099 posted...
I have a feeling most of those quests might be gone since expedition mode is a thing and so one would use that to gather certain items to stock up. They did mention egg quests would be back.


Cool beans, the less of those the better for casual players I think.

Negative things aside, I have a feeling this will sell very well in the West. We could see MH becoming an extremely popular title with this release.


I'm also hopefully it will become a big success here as well. It will be a nice change to have the franchise progress back to home consoles so we can save our hands from imminent carpal tunnel... That and the big screen / surround sound experience.
MHGen: Folcan [Village: 1-6* Completed] [HR - 475+]
LE MH4U N3DSXL: Folcan [HR - 800+] | Caska [HR - 50]

User Info: YoukaiSlayer

YoukaiSlayer
2 years ago#74
How would it even be possible to need a guide to beat something? Who do you think makes the guides? How did they figure out? Why couldn't anyone do that? Even figuring out charge timings on tigrex can be done with trial and error. I know early into my fighting of tigrex that I had several times where it seemed like he charged right over me. Didn't take too much trial and error to figure out how it worked.

Even with something as obtuse as teo nova its very easy to get a general feel for it after a few dozen attempts even if you never figure out the exact trigger. Same way you can get a feel for when a monster is just about to die even if it's one that doesn't limp or show any signs of being near death.

That stuff aside I find it a bit curious. As far as I'm aware, league of legends is the most "successful" video game of all time with 32 million unique players per month at one point. The time investment in that game is immense, the game has an insane amount of information that needs to be learned to even function at a basic level. Every match is a 20-90 minutes time commitment (including picks, bans, dodges and loading) and it cannot be played on a handheld device. Much of the vitally important information in the game is unexplained like minion AI and jungle camp catch up xp values or that abilities don't draw minion aggro but auto attacks do (something I saw a challenger player find out recently). It's a game you cannot be good at without devoting multiple hours a day for months to. Much of this mirrors complaints about monster hunter, and yet it had the widest reach of any game, so how could monster hunter be that much less accessible?

Looking at another incredibly popular and "accessible" game, WoW. It got up to 11 million players at one point. It's a damn MMO, the kind of game that requires the most time commitment of any genre. I feel like the excuses for MHs lack of massive popularity need to be explained with other reasons. Not to mention most players these days WILL look up guides and external info. The days of most people playing without external help is all but over (which is kind of annoying from a design perspective).

Given how many g rank players have absolutely no idea wtf they are doing should be proof enough that monster hunter is plenty accessible. It's core appeal just doesn't appeal to most people and it hasn't had very much marketing in the west. The poor controls initially (aka 1st and 2nd gen) were a legitimate accessibility problem and arguably so was starting off with boring gathering and small monster quests for the first 5+ hours. These issues have mostly been fixed by 3rd gen.
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User Info: Uta

Uta
2 years ago#75
Youkai, not everyone is the same. Some people learn slower than others, some gaming experiences lend themselves better to adapting than others. When I picked up Monster Hunter the only other games I had played were RPGs and Zelda. Things like combos and positioning were entirely alien concepts to me. Stamina meters, weapon sharpness, eating for food buffs, none of that stuff was anything I'd ever come close to in a game before. Some people are just better at intuiting the game than others. Monster Hunter from the ground up was designed for people to get together and figure things out. It deliberately hid information from players to force them to get together and figure everything out. We no longer live in an age where that's tolerable in the game industry, and it's good to see them try to adapt without sacrificing what makes MonHun special.

League of Legend's success can be attributed to three things.

1) Easy to Learn, Hard to Master: That is the game is literally four buttons and your mouse. It doesn't get much more technical than that even at the highest levels of play. It's a matter of item optimization, metagame analysis, and nuanced mechanics that set players apart, but no matter how good you are you're working four buttons and a mouse. This makes the game easy to pick up even by the worst players, and something like 80% of the playerbase is silver or above, so clearly even passing familiarity with the game gets you to a level that's "better than the worst"

2) Competition: Competitive games sell like hot-cakes. Have you ever paid attention to the Pokemon Competitive scene? The burden of knowledge there is equally immense. Same with WoW, same with CoD (though CoD's knowledge boils down to which guns are good). Competitive games pit man against man, so there's no predictability outside of metagames and every encounter feels subtly different.

3) Aggressive marketing towards young males. Nearly half of LoLs cast is consisted of females, but while the male half of the pool is filled with things like Dinosaurs, terrorfiends and Clint Eastwood. Every single female is a giant sack of t*** with almost no clothing. They've only recently begun diversifying the cast (well over 100 champions in), and it's very clear that this is a marketing tactic to make the game more appealing to horny 15 year olds with access to mom's credit cards and lots of free time.

Wow's success was a bit different. You have to understand that WoW was the MMO that actually made the genre accessible. Before WoW you spent years grinding levels and if you got PK'd you lost all your items and maybe a level. Check out 2007 Runescape to know what MMOs were like before WoW (I know WoW is older than '07, but RS is dated even by its own standards). With WoW you could log in for a few hours a day, quest and level up with a decently enjoyable story. The formula of "Go here, kill x" was perfected here and made the game mindless and addictive. Knowing how to play the game well was only a requirement for raiders, and raiding didn't even really hit WoW until the first expansion.

LoL succeeds by being the first and most accessible MOBA. WoW succeeds by being the most accessible MMO. Monster Hunter has damn near tried to alienate new customers by sticking to tradition, to the point that even obviously poor gameplay decisions like the potion animation are championed as important to the game's identity.
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.

User Info: Hellome7

Hellome7
2 years ago#76
Even though I always loved the games (fell in love with it when I first played it online on my PS2, as "pwse815". Used to have a blast with a guy called "Zabit"), I can understand why a lot of people would hate it.

First off, the gameplay. I can love it, I can admire it and yet I'm conscious enough to know how "clumsy" it is. The game doesn't feel like a proper 3rd person RPG action game, like the last entries of the FF saga for example. However, I get the feeling as I watch the gameplay videos of MH: W, that this highly criticized aspect of the game is being sorted out, by smoothing every action/move the player can perform and the transitions between them. It feels, at least visually at the moment, more nicely and enjoyable.

Then, you have some mechanics of the games that may not appeal to everyone and that have been thought out for the upcoming MH game. A few examples may be how you would have to stop in order to drink a potion, how hot or cold would affect your health/stamina, how slow the process is to craft a complete armor set (and how expensive these are), how between each area of the map there is a loading screen to separate them, etc. I can see how and why all these points (and others) may keep a lot of gamers away from the game.

Lastly, not everyone is willing to spend hours and hours killing the same monsters, over and over and over again without a solid story in between or other incentives rather than just crafting weapons and pieces of armor. Not everyone agrees on being restricted to just 4 players per quest. Not everyone enjoys non-competitive online games. Not everyone enjoys unpopular games. Not everyone enjoys those experiences, at least, when they are all combined into a single game.

I think MH is a game you can either love or hate (and with a passion). That's why we love the game because we're all for the hunting/slaying monsters experience. We love that so much, we don't mind having to kill them multiple consecutive times. A lot of us (I included) are even willing to play it in other languages, like in Chinese (MHO) or Japanese (MHF). And that's because MH is unique in a lot of ways. There are some games similar to MH but not by that much. On the other hand, the people who aren't attracted so much by the idea that MH proposes them, feel much more negatively all the flaws of the game and judge the game accordingly.

User Info: DaiIchiban

DaiIchiban
2 years ago#77
SpinKirby posted...
nuke2099 posted...
SpinKirby posted...
You guys might be disillusioned if you can't see why people don't get into the series. It's very simple.


This game isn't easy to learn and it's time consuming in it's general processes.
That right there is enough to stop most people from joining.

Exact same reason why League is more popular than Dota 2, which I don't think is a bad thing, actually.

I know this tbh.

I just can't understand the time limit complaints from some people. Such as taking 50 minutes to kill a Velocidrome and apparently it's the games fault when they spent most of it dicking about.


Given enough time, people will find a way to complain about everything.

Some people aren't entertained if they are challenged.
Some people aren't entertained unless they are challenged.

Some people aren't entertained unless they get what they feel entitled to.
Monster Hunter GMR Chrome Heart Legend. Molded in metal by the Gods of Rock for GMR. Please show appropriate respect. Thank you.

User Info: SpinKirby

SpinKirby
2 years ago#78
Uta posted...
Youkai, not everyone is the same. Some people learn slower than others, some gaming experiences lend themselves better to adapting than others. When I picked up Monster Hunter the only other games I had played were RPGs and Zelda. Things like combos and positioning were entirely alien concepts to me. Stamina meters, weapon sharpness, eating for food buffs, none of that stuff was anything I'd ever come close to in a game before. Some people are just better at intuiting the game than others. Monster Hunter from the ground up was designed for people to get together and figure things out. It deliberately hid information from players to force them to get together and figure everything out. We no longer live in an age where that's tolerable in the game industry, and it's good to see them try to adapt without sacrificing what makes MonHun special.

League of Legend's success can be attributed to three things.

1) Easy to Learn, Hard to Master: That is the game is literally four buttons and your mouse. It doesn't get much more technical than that even at the highest levels of play. It's a matter of item optimization, metagame analysis, and nuanced mechanics that set players apart, but no matter how good you are you're working four buttons and a mouse. This makes the game easy to pick up even by the worst players, and something like 80% of the playerbase is silver or above, so clearly even passing familiarity with the game gets you to a level that's "better than the worst"

2) Competition: Competitive games sell like hot-cakes. Have you ever paid attention to the Pokemon Competitive scene? The burden of knowledge there is equally immense. Same with WoW, same with CoD (though CoD's knowledge boils down to which guns are good). Competitive games pit man against man, so there's no predictability outside of metagames and every encounter feels subtly different.

3) Aggressive marketing towards young males. Nearly half of LoLs cast is consisted of females, but while the male half of the pool is filled with things like Dinosaurs, terrorfiends and Clint Eastwood. Every single female is a giant sack of t*** with almost no clothing. They've only recently begun diversifying the cast (well over 100 champions in), and it's very clear that this is a marketing tactic to make the game more appealing to horny 15 year olds with access to mom's credit cards and lots of free time.

Wow's success was a bit different. You have to understand that WoW was the MMO that actually made the genre accessible. Before WoW you spent years grinding levels and if you got PK'd you lost all your items and maybe a level. Check out 2007 Runescape to know what MMOs were like before WoW (I know WoW is older than '07, but RS is dated even by its own standards). With WoW you could log in for a few hours a day, quest and level up with a decently enjoyable story. The formula of "Go here, kill x" was perfected here and made the game mindless and addictive. Knowing how to play the game well was only a requirement for raiders, and raiding didn't even really hit WoW until the first expansion.

LoL succeeds by being the first and most accessible MOBA. WoW succeeds by being the most accessible MMO. Monster Hunter has damn near tried to alienate new customers by sticking to tradition, to the point that even obviously poor gameplay decisions like the potion animation are championed as important to the game's identity.


I haven't seen someone write a post that's so f***ing good on Gamefaqs in a long time. You basically just perfectly explained what I've been trying to preach to multitudes of people across numerous games.

My god...
In a recent statistical study, it was shown that only 9/10 people want to play DotA 2.

User Info: megasoniczxx

megasoniczxx
2 years ago#79
Coming from a person who disliked this series at the start, there are a number of reasons why when you first start:

1. Hitting anything outside of large monsteres is a pain in the neck because of how fast small ones are and how slow every weapon besides the SS and DS are.

2. The movement can feel really bad until you get used to it.

3. The actual farming and grinding gets boring if your not completely into that sort of thing.

4. The beginning of the games start off pretty slow and take a while to pick up in speed.

5 (and I feel this is most important). The demo does a horrible job of actually giving you reasons to want to buy the full game even though it represents the games main attraction well since it just drops you to fight these different monsters with (presumably) no prior experience and no ways to ease you into the gameplay.

These (among other things) were the reasons why I pretty much dropped the games like a bad habit and almost didn't look back until watching some videos by projared and actually giving the full game (MH3U in this case) a rental to try it out. Initially a lot of my complaints still applied (and to be honest a lot still persist with me even now) but after spending some time with it, things started to make sense and I started really enjoying the game in its full entirety instead of the small sample size I had to go on before.

Needless to say, its not the most beginner friendly action game and I can fully understand why not many people would want to pick it up right off the bat because of how things feel at first, like you need to spend at least a good 3 hours with the full game I feel to truly start enjoying MH and not many people would want to go that distance and instead opt to play something else. I probably wouldn't have gotten into this series myself if I hadn't given MH3U a rent and gave it a proper crack because going off past experiences it was pretty much everything that I hate in an action game stuffed into one package at that moment so I feel like how long a person puts into these games can really impact whether they get into it or not.
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