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User Info: MeepleLardicle

MeepleLardicle
1 month ago#361
Oh yeah, I'd also point this out too:

While one could argue "pfft, tournaments, how boring!", I'd note there was a different dynamic in Super's Tournaments than OG Dragon Ball's, allowing them to feel fresh:

Both Uni6 and ToP were team oriented. It was about winning for the team, not winning for yourself. Not that there's anything wrong with the latter...in fact I'd argue it works very well. I'm just saying that Super intelligently through a little twist in there to keep it fresh.

Uni6 Tournament was the same in format and rules, but the fact that it was "Teams of 5, 1v1, warriors replace as they go" meant we could have characters cheer each other on because "hey, we're on the same team!" Vegeta and Goku are not competing here, beyond "WHOSE THE MVP!?" maybe, but rather, they're both fighitng for Uni7.

Tournament of Power was even better in this respect. Full 8 teams of 10 Battle Royale. This allowed for things like team work to go in. Also the "Can't fly" thing in theory forces a restriction in fights, albeit, a lot of suspension of belief between how much "not!Flying" there was, and stuff like characters attacking at seemingly impossible angles, or "Wait, if Frieza kicked Goku when Goku was there, how did Frieza avoid falling off the edge!? CIRCLES DON'T WORK THAT WAY!" but I digress.

Now you can argue they didn't do it well enough, and yes, ToP did have flaws and missed opportunities, but the set up was unique to the franchise, so just going "yet another tournament!" is disingenous. By that logic, I can just say...

Baby: Just another "Evil Vegeta" moment
Super 17: Just another ULTIMATE ANDROID creation
Omega Shenron: Just another god-like super evil bad guy the heroes

Before you jump in and go "That's not being fair to those characters"...that was entirely the point. You can dishonestly reduce characters or ideas down to their most basic elements and ignore the details that actually make them stand out. Whether they have details that make them stand out is irrelevant in my argument, I'm just arguing that if you pretend the Tournament of Power is "Just another tournament", then anyone can spin around and say something like what I said about the main 3 villains of GT in a similarly dishonest way.

AND LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR:

I am not railing on the classic 1v1, every man for themselves, top 8/16/whatever style tournaments of OG Dragon Ball. As I said, those were absolutely fine and they worked well! I'm just saying Super changed things up a bit and it keeps it fresh. Dragon Ball only used the tournament 3 times, which was fine, but after that it's time to move onto something else. Super bringing tournaments back is fine, and by changing the formula up a bit, it keeps it fresh rather than feeling like "we've been here before." So again, I am not saying anything bad about the OG Dragon Ball tournaments! One can appreciate change in style while recognizing the benefits of the original, after all.
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User Info: finalfantasy94

finalfantasy94
1 month ago#362
@MeepleLardicle
s***ty writing really doesn't make it ok to make 17 relevant again. You telling me all this time you couldn't come up with something to make 17 work. What they used doesn't make sense especially with the example of piccolo i mentioned. If it was just a tiny boost of power then maybe but they made him god level. I'm sorry but no you dont get a pass like that.

Friza giving any sort of respect goes against the character as well. This is the same guy who blew himself up twice when he knew losing was right around the corner. I was also pointing out the people who actually think him becoming neutral is some of good thing for said character when it really isn't as it goes against the character 100%. The point also still stands that this act made goku look even more worse in super which is shocked since hes already been s*** in super before this.

"Goku Black definitely came off as an intimidating force, to the point where you start forgetting you're just looking at evil Goku."
No where near this. All I can think of the whole time was what a waste this character was when its just someone wearing a goku costume.

I give it to super that it actually tried to use other characters unlike GT, but it still failed hard at the attempt.
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User Info: Haseo5thUSteel

Haseo5thUSteel
1 month ago#363
finalfantasy94 posted...
@MeepleLardicle
s***ty writing really doesn't make it ok to make 17 relevant again. You telling me all this time you couldn't come up with something to make 17 work. What they used doesn't make sense especially with the example of piccolo i mentioned. If it was just a tiny boost of power then maybe but they made him god level. I'm sorry but no you dont get a pass like that.
Anime only. Even then Goku says he'll try to not kill him in the Japanese dub. In the manga he only goes to Super Saiyan 3. The anime is bad at power scaling, this is nothing new. Even then, bad writing is GT, when Gero and Myu somehow took over hell, made another 17 and somehow gained control over 17 from earth.

Friza giving any sort of respect goes against the character as well. This is the same guy who blew himself up twice when he knew losing was right around the corner. I was also pointing out the people who actually think him becoming neutral is some of good thing for said character when it really isn't as it goes against the character 100%. The point also still stands that this act made goku look even more worse in super which is shocked since hes already been s*** in super before this.
Considering, that his revival was on the line of course he would be helpful to the f***ing team. It was all in his self interest and actually goes with his character. Also how does it make Goku look worse?

"Goku Black definitely came off as an intimidating force, to the point where you start forgetting you're just looking at evil Goku."
No where near this. All I can think of the whole time was what a waste this character was when its just someone wearing a goku costume.
Same could be said about Baby Vegeta, only difference is he would have succeeded if Goku didn't have the button to call Zeno.

I give it to super that it actually tried to use other characters unlike GT, but it still failed hard at the attempt.
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User Info: Denizen_Of_Dark

Denizen_Of_Dark
1 month ago#364
Haseo5thUSteel posted...
finalfantasy94 posted...
@MeepleLardicle
s***ty writing really doesn't make it ok to make 17 relevant again. You telling me all this time you couldn't come up with something to make 17 work. What they used doesn't make sense especially with the example of piccolo i mentioned. If it was just a tiny boost of power then maybe but they made him god level. I'm sorry but no you dont get a pass like that.
Anime only. Even then Goku says he'll try to not kill him in the Japanese dub. In the manga he only goes to Super Saiyan 3. The anime is bad at power scaling, this is nothing new. Even then, bad writing is GT, when Gero and Myu somehow took over hell, made another 17 and somehow gained control over 17 from earth.

Friza giving any sort of respect goes against the character as well. This is the same guy who blew himself up twice when he knew losing was right around the corner. I was also pointing out the people who actually think him becoming neutral is some of good thing for said character when it really isn't as it goes against the character 100%. The point also still stands that this act made goku look even more worse in super which is shocked since hes already been s*** in super before this.
Considering, that his revival was on the line of course he would be helpful to the f***ing team. It was all in his self interest and actually goes with his character. Also how does it make Goku look worse?

"Goku Black definitely came off as an intimidating force, to the point where you start forgetting you're just looking at evil Goku."
No where near this. All I can think of the whole time was what a waste this character was when its just someone wearing a goku costume.
Same could be said about Baby Vegeta, only difference is he would have succeeded if Goku didn't have the button to call Zeno.

I give it to super that it actually tried to use other characters unlike GT, but it still failed hard at the attempt.

Frieza was always respectful n polite. That's who he is. He's mad cordial. Push him a Lil n he starts to unravel but he's a high class, high society snob. That's who he is.

Also, super did do a much better job wit 17, n even tho it's ending sucked, goku black arc was Def better than baby.
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User Info: Denizen_Of_Dark

Denizen_Of_Dark
1 month ago#365
MeepleLardicle posted...
Oh yeah, I'd also point this out too:

While one could argue "pfft, tournaments, how boring!", I'd note there was a different dynamic in Super's Tournaments than OG Dragon Ball's, allowing them to feel fresh:

Both Uni6 and ToP were team oriented. It was about winning for the team, not winning for yourself. Not that there's anything wrong with the latter...in fact I'd argue it works very well. I'm just saying that Super intelligently through a little twist in there to keep it fresh.

Uni6 Tournament was the same in format and rules, but the fact that it was "Teams of 5, 1v1, warriors replace as they go" meant we could have characters cheer each other on because "hey, we're on the same team!" Vegeta and Goku are not competing here, beyond "WHOSE THE MVP!?" maybe, but rather, they're both fighitng for Uni7.

Tournament of Power was even better in this respect. Full 8 teams of 10 Battle Royale. This allowed for things like team work to go in. Also the "Can't fly" thing in theory forces a restriction in fights, albeit, a lot of suspension of belief between how much "not!Flying" there was, and stuff like characters attacking at seemingly impossible angles, or "Wait, if Frieza kicked Goku when Goku was there, how did Frieza avoid falling off the edge!? CIRCLES DON'T WORK THAT WAY!" but I digress.

Now you can argue they didn't do it well enough, and yes, ToP did have flaws and missed opportunities, but the set up was unique to the franchise, so just going "yet another tournament!" is disingenous. By that logic, I can just say...

Baby: Just another "Evil Vegeta" moment
Super 17: Just another ULTIMATE ANDROID creation
Omega Shenron: Just another god-like super evil bad guy the heroes

Before you jump in and go "That's not being fair to those characters"...that was entirely the point. You can dishonestly reduce characters or ideas down to their most basic elements and ignore the details that actually make them stand out. Whether they have details that make them stand out is irrelevant in my argument, I'm just arguing that if you pretend the Tournament of Power is "Just another tournament", then anyone can spin around and say something like what I said about the main 3 villains of GT in a similarly dishonest way.

AND LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR:

I am not railing on the classic 1v1, every man for themselves, top 8/16/whatever style tournaments of OG Dragon Ball. As I said, those were absolutely fine and they worked well! I'm just saying Super changed things up a bit and it keeps it fresh. Dragon Ball only used the tournament 3 times, which was fine, but after that it's time to move onto something else. Super bringing tournaments back is fine, and by changing the formula up a bit, it keeps it fresh rather than feeling like "we've been here before." So again, I am not saying anything bad about the OG Dragon Ball tournaments! One can appreciate change in style while recognizing the benefits of the original, after all.

Solid post
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User Info: Denizen_Of_Dark

Denizen_Of_Dark
1 month ago#366
MeepleLardicle posted...
Many good things u mean. I agree wit that whole post. Super is a Lil less "better pull this transformation/fusion out my ass" n a Lil more "s***, I'm outclassed, which techniques can I use to steal a victory here?"


To be

The interesting thing, though?

Super Sayain Blue remained the standard for the next 3 arcs; we didn't get a legit new transformation for either character until Goku's Ultra Instinct (which they seemed to be very reserved about using), and followed up with SSBE Vegeta. That's pretty reserved, considering in Z, we got a new Sayain Transformation each arc.

Granted, there was Trunks' Super Sayain Rage form, but that was just some cheap excuse to allow Trunks to be on the same level as Goku/Vegeta without having any kind of godly ki, and again, it was given to a character who only had lesser forms anyway.

Again, it really shows how Jiren just contrasts everything before in Super and went back to basics of "MUH POWAH LEVELS!" because...well...it was basically Final Form Frieza all over again!

Goku goes all out, uses Kaioken on Jiren, not working!
Side Character: Hey, that's ok, Goku has more power he can use!
Deity Character: No, he's been using that power all along!
Side Character: What!? OH NO!
Goku: Well, one last resort, SPIRIT BOMB!
*Spirit Bomb fails*
Opponent: *appears seemingly unstoppable*
Goku: *gains new form, suddenly turns the tide*

The only difference is that the new form wore off and the true fight happened later, but the first fight with Jiren was 100% a rehash of FF Frieza. The 2nd fight was a bit more interesting since a lot of stuff was happening, but it inevitably came down to "Goku gets new form, and beats the **** out of Jiren!"

The only real difference is the twist at the very end where the power actually has a downside to Goku, which led into the actual good part of the fight: The Finale. I don't mean that in a "It'S FINALLY OVER!" thing, but seeing 17 and Frieza picking up where Goku left off, in hopes of finishing it off, ending with the big finale of the Goku/Frieza beat down on Jiren in an incredibly well co-ordinated attack (getting the point of "Trust > Power!" theme the ToP through at the last second), using lots of imagery from various points of the series. Interesting how the best part of the Jiren fight was when it DEVIATED from the established norms.

Heck, even before then, I'd say my favorite part of Goku vs. Jiren was not Mastered Ultra Instinct, but the Kienzan stunt. Goku's back is against the corner, Jiren's clearly got the upperhand, going in for the final hit...then suddenly the platform breaks underneath, with Goku having a "JUST AS PLANNED!" reaction, and teleports away. Yeah, Jiren bull****ed his way out of it, but it was a rare case of Goku planning strategically rather than thinking "if I hit him harder than he hits me, I'll win!" Again, the kind of "out of the box" style fighting the Tournament of Power gave us that GT basically completely ignored (Z didn't do it a lot, but it had it's moments at least. If nothing else, Solar Flare was a commonly used "Below the Belt" trick that worked on everyone, power be damned.)

Once again, I agree wit most o ur post.

Don't forget that super is fan service. It's meant to bring up old memories. Like goku vs frieza(jiren). Everythin about super is an homage to DB n dbz. Everythin about super is made to be a love letter to this franchise. Not from toriyamas perspective, but everybody workin on this anime/Manga grew up as fans. They intentionally do s*** to hint at olden times.

After movie recaps that is, which prolly mostly existed to giv toei staff some time to gather resources.
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User Info: Kataphrut

Kataphrut
1 month ago#367
MeepleLardicle posted...
Oh yeah, I'd also point this out too:

While one could argue "pfft, tournaments, how boring!", I'd note there was a different dynamic in Super's Tournaments than OG Dragon Ball's, allowing them to feel fresh:

Both Uni6 and ToP were team oriented. It was about winning for the team, not winning for yourself. Not that there's anything wrong with the latter...in fact I'd argue it works very well. I'm just saying that Super intelligently through a little twist in there to keep it fresh.

Uni6 Tournament was the same in format and rules, but the fact that it was "Teams of 5, 1v1, warriors replace as they go" meant we could have characters cheer each other on because "hey, we're on the same team!" Vegeta and Goku are not competing here, beyond "WHOSE THE MVP!?" maybe, but rather, they're both fighitng for Uni7.

Tournament of Power was even better in this respect. Full 8 teams of 10 Battle Royale. This allowed for things like team work to go in. Also the "Can't fly" thing in theory forces a restriction in fights, albeit, a lot of suspension of belief between how much "not!Flying" there was, and stuff like characters attacking at seemingly impossible angles, or "Wait, if Frieza kicked Goku when Goku was there, how did Frieza avoid falling off the edge!? CIRCLES DON'T WORK THAT WAY!" but I digress.

Now you can argue they didn't do it well enough, and yes, ToP did have flaws and missed opportunities, but the set up was unique to the franchise, so just going "yet another tournament!" is disingenous. By that logic, I can just say...

Baby: Just another "Evil Vegeta" moment
Super 17: Just another ULTIMATE ANDROID creation
Omega Shenron: Just another god-like super evil bad guy the heroes

Before you jump in and go "That's not being fair to those characters"...that was entirely the point. You can dishonestly reduce characters or ideas down to their most basic elements and ignore the details that actually make them stand out. Whether they have details that make them stand out is irrelevant in my argument, I'm just arguing that if you pretend the Tournament of Power is "Just another tournament", then anyone can spin around and say something like what I said about the main 3 villains of GT in a similarly dishonest way.

AND LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR:

I am not railing on the classic 1v1, every man for themselves, top 8/16/whatever style tournaments of OG Dragon Ball. As I said, those were absolutely fine and they worked well! I'm just saying Super changed things up a bit and it keeps it fresh. Dragon Ball only used the tournament 3 times, which was fine, but after that it's time to move onto something else. Super bringing tournaments back is fine, and by changing the formula up a bit, it keeps it fresh rather than feeling like "we've been here before." So again, I am not saying anything bad about the OG Dragon Ball tournaments! One can appreciate change in style while recognizing the benefits of the original, after all.


Great post, especially the bolded part. That's something I see so many people do, especially fans and it drives me up the wall. Just pointing out surface-level stuff like that counts as criticism.

User Info: Dark_Zoroark

Dark_Zoroark
1 month ago#368
I'm sorry what? I love GT and I say this:

GT's Baby arc is thousands of time better than the 3 first s*** arcs we got in DBS. The only arc we could argue is on par is the Zamasu arc and even the last part was stupid. ToP is a mess, but it's better than the Super 17 arc and the first parts of the Shadow Dragon Arc.

But still, Baby Arc > U6 Arc > BoG Arc >>>>>>>>>>> RoF Arc

The Black Star Dragon Balls arc is great for OG DB fans but it's RoF level of bad.
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