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  3. PSA: 2D and 3v3 overview for newbies - DBZF and you

User Info: metalx88

metalx88
1 year ago#31
DrunkenPilot72 posted...
@metalx88 posted...
Follow up question, and my finally noob curiosity, when you stated that the feel ASW games had would be a good start, does that mean mechanic wise, button inputs, or possibly both?


Both, the only thing missing is the 3v3 format. Individual characters will feel closer to DBFZ characters (button notations, high mobility, etc) so you'll get more comfortable with picking up individual characters but you'll miss out on team building dynamics (Goku will play closer to Ragna/Sol but no teams).

UMvC3 is the opposite, you'll learn team building mechanics but individual characters are going to feel very different (Goku will play nothing like Ryu/Wolverine but you can experiment with team building fundementals).


You have been a massive help. I'll be picking up Blaze Blue, and permitting I get comfortable will be waiting for DBZF.
PSN-FatherOfWolves

User Info: DNC88

DNC88
1 year ago#32
This has been very insightful, really appreciate the effort because even though I have played 2D fighters in the past I've never truly understood all terminology or mechanics.

The 3v3 team building thing was particularly useful!

Great topic. Thanks @DrunkenPilot72
PSN - DevilsNeverCry

User Info: JELIFISH19

JELIFISH19
1 year ago#33
DrunkenPilot72 posted...
JELIFISH19 posted...
Why wouldn't they be great anchors?

And anchors aren't something you normally get in team games like this. Anchors are prominent in games like KOF because last characters have access to things that the first characters don't have access to. Your anchor has access to 5 meters and a longer Max Mode to do more damage than your point can. You didn't really have anchors in MvC until MvC3 where X-Factor was a thing.


That isn't true.

MvC2 had one of the most broken anchors of all time - Cable. Cable was the only character who could string together 5 supers in a single combo. At high level play, Cable would ToD anyone with a single confirm off of HK into Air Hyper Viper Beam until meter was gone. There is a reason why Cable was never seen on point or as an assist for the most dangerous MvC2 teams.

Even before Cable, early anchors in MvC2 were all characters who could do the most damage with meter. Sure both Ryu and Ironman had giant beam hypers but Ironman's did a lot more chip damage which is why Ironman was a common anchor during the early years of MvC2.

Again is isn't just a case of giving everyone a level 3 or level 5 super. Some characters are going to be able to deal a lot more damage than others with the same amount of meter. Comeback mechanics like X Factor, Sparking, or Infinity Storm just add to anchor potential but those mechanics are by no means the only things that determine a good anchor.

Cable wasn't an anchor. Here's why. He works better with assists. Cable alone isn't good. Cable can do more with an anti-air assist and something to control the ground than he can as an anchor. That's the basis of Team Scrub. The meta developed so a point character with good assists and DHC options increases your chances of winning more than anything else. That's how Skullgirls is too. Your last character loses tools so the odds are always against them. MvC3 changed things because your last character had access to something that your other characters didn't and that made it viable to rely on them to make comebacks.

Here's 2 of the best MvC2 players. This is how Cable is played.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuibC8SPYNo

Notice that neither have anchors. And your "Cable with 5 meters" example is heavily flawed because having 5 meters is rare. To have 5 meters means you've been sacrificing damage to save meter which is a terrible idea. You're putting yourself at a disadvantage to be at a bigger disadvantage when you have one character left. That doesn't make sense.
I <3 my HRAP EX-SE
Capcom, ASW, & NRS fighting games 4 Life

User Info: Project5Boss

Project5Boss
1 year ago#34
JELIFISH19 posted...
DrunkenPilot72 posted...
JELIFISH19 posted...
Why wouldn't they be great anchors?

And anchors aren't something you normally get in team games like this. Anchors are prominent in games like KOF because last characters have access to things that the first characters don't have access to. Your anchor has access to 5 meters and a longer Max Mode to do more damage than your point can. You didn't really have anchors in MvC until MvC3 where X-Factor was a thing.


That isn't true.

MvC2 had one of the most broken anchors of all time - Cable. Cable was the only character who could string together 5 supers in a single combo. At high level play, Cable would ToD anyone with a single confirm off of HK into Air Hyper Viper Beam until meter was gone. There is a reason why Cable was never seen on point or as an assist for the most dangerous MvC2 teams.

Even before Cable, early anchors in MvC2 were all characters who could do the most damage with meter. Sure both Ryu and Ironman had giant beam hypers but Ironman's did a lot more chip damage which is why Ironman was a common anchor during the early years of MvC2.

Again is isn't just a case of giving everyone a level 3 or level 5 super. Some characters are going to be able to deal a lot more damage than others with the same amount of meter. Comeback mechanics like X Factor, Sparking, or Infinity Storm just add to anchor potential but those mechanics are by no means the only things that determine a good anchor.

Cable wasn't an anchor. Here's why. He works better with assists. Cable alone isn't good. Cable can do more with an anti-air assist and something to control the ground than he can as an anchor. That's the basis of Team Scrub. The meta developed so a point character with good assists and DHC options increases your chances of winning more than anything else. That's how Skullgirls is too. Your last character loses tools so the odds are always against them. MvC3 changed things because your last character had access to something that your other characters didn't and that made it viable to rely on them to make comebacks.

Here's 2 of the best MvC2 players. This is how Cable is played.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuibC8SPYNo

Notice that neither have anchors. And your "Cable with 5 meters" example is heavily flawed because having 5 meters is rare. To have 5 meters means you've been sacrificing damage to save meter which is a terrible idea. You're putting yourself at a disadvantage to be at a bigger disadvantage when you have one character left. That doesn't make sense.


Why dont you pm dude and leave this thread for helping newbs? Lets not litter this thread with a useless debate with little relevance to the actual game or topic.
:WutBurter :Hiranopls

User Info: JELIFISH19

JELIFISH19
1 year ago#35
Project5Boss posted...
Why dont you pm dude and leave this thread for helping newbs? Lets not litter this thread with a useless debate with little relevance to the actual game or topic.

It's not a useless debate. He's giving the wrong information to the "newbs" he's trying to help.
I <3 my HRAP EX-SE
Capcom, ASW, & NRS fighting games 4 Life

User Info: DrunkenPilot72

DrunkenPilot72
1 year ago#36
@JELIFISH19 posted...
Project5Boss posted...
Why dont you pm dude and leave this thread for helping newbs? Lets not litter this thread with a useless debate with little relevance to the actual game or topic.

It's not a useless debate. He's giving the wrong information to the "newbs" he's trying to help.


Tell you what then.

You are right on Cable and how anchors in general weren't a major part of 3v3 prior to MvC3. No snips, no conditional "but your argument only works for____", or any other proactive ways to draw this out further. When reviewing MvC2 top 8 teams for Evo 2001-2010, Cable appears often as an assist, rarely as an anchor, and never on point. MvC2 in it's entirety was more focused on a powerful point character backed by 2 assists with the "anchor" being a very rare occurrence at high level.

My MvC2 knowledge was flawed and I stand corrected.

This topic is about improvement and knowledge sharing. So long as it is about 3v3 and how it relates to DBFZ, it is relevant. Even when games are developed with an anchor designation in mind, the traditional balanced team with a point and 2 assists can still work. It is just another possible team style to keep in mind when constructing a team. Off the top of my head, KBR's big body team Hulk/Sent/Haggar is one such team as none of those characters are powerful anchor material. Well Sentinel use to be back in vanilla MvC3 but as a result the meta shifted against Sentinel as players developed anti Sentinel tech (he can't hit above him so something as lulzy as high jump Chris Magnum could work to stall) and he also was nerfed multiple times.
PSN: vyers72
FC: 0860-3464-0095
(edited 1 year ago)

User Info: DrunkenPilot72

DrunkenPilot72
1 year ago#37
Current meta check in - Evo 2017 build

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37quDzxWCZA

Things to pay attention to regarding team composition

Oreo
Point - Cell
Assist - Vegeta
Anchor - Gohan

Chad Draws Things
Point - Goku
Assist - Vegeta
Anchor - Gohan

Oreo does a great job demonstrating Cell's advantages on point. Cell has both a good sliding low and an overhead teleport that makes for a great mix up game which lets him constantly pressure the opponent. Worth noting is the start up on Cell's overhead, the move has a delay before it hits (a universal flaw for most 2D overheads) which gets stuffed a few times by the universal launcher at 0:23 and 3:19.

Starting at 0:57, we see a DBFZ magic series attempt: ground string > wall bounce > homing dash > aerial combo > teleport wall bounce (costs 1 meter) > dragon rush > aerial combo > super finisher. Granted Oreo drops the final level 3 Solar Powered Kamehameha, we see a successful magic series connect with Cell at 2:47. Oreo connects again with two back to back magic series combos, this time with Vegeta at 4:24. Finally Oreo gets a short magic series with Gohan at 5:45.

Proper use of Vegeta's assist to lock the opponent down can be seen at 4:06. Oreo went for Cell's overhead teleport and covered it with Vegeta's assist. Even if the overhead was blocked, Goku wouldn't have been able to move and either way Cell would've been able to continue pressure. Chad returns the favor at 5:03 to continue Goku's pressure. Oreo gets one more lock down Vegeta assist at 5:57.

Pressure, punishment, mix up, and meter usage for safe tagging in play at 5:15. Vegeta's block string ending in an attempted wall bounce is unsafe which leaves a window open for Goku to poke with jabs. These jabs connect which then gets Oreo to instinctively block allowing Chad to casually walk up and land a dragon rush. Chad drops the combo but then sacrifices 2 meters to safely tag Gohan in.
PSN: vyers72
FC: 0860-3464-0095

User Info: Gianto

Gianto
1 year ago#38
DrunkenPilot72 posted...
Current meta check in - Evo 2017 build

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37quDzxWCZA

Things to pay attention to regarding team composition

Oreo
Point - Cell
Assist - Vegeta
Anchor - Gohan

Chad Draws Things
Point - Goku
Assist - Vegeta
Anchor - Gohan

Oreo does a great job demonstrating Cell's advantages on point. Cell has both a good sliding low and an overhead teleport that makes for a great mix up game which lets him constantly pressure the opponent. Worth noting is the start up on Cell's overhead, the move has a delay before it hits (a universal flaw for most 2D overheads) which gets stuffed a few times by the universal launcher at 0:23 and 3:19.

Starting at 0:57, we see a DBFZ magic series attempt: ground string > wall bounce > homing dash > aerial combo > teleport wall bounce (costs 1 meter) > dragon rush > aerial combo > super finisher. Granted Oreo drops the final level 3 Solar Powered Kamehameha, we see a successful magic series connect with Cell at 2:47. Oreo connects again with two back to back magic series combos, this time with Vegeta at 4:24. Finally Oreo gets a short magic series with Gohan at 5:45.

Proper use of Vegeta's assist to lock the opponent down can be seen at 4:06. Oreo went for Cell's overhead teleport and covered it with Vegeta's assist. Even if the overhead was blocked, Goku wouldn't have been able to move and either way Cell would've been able to continue pressure. Chad returns the favor at 5:03 to continue Goku's pressure. Oreo gets one more lock down Vegeta assist at 5:57.

Pressure, punishment, mix up, and meter usage for safe tagging in play at 5:15. Vegeta's block string ending in an attempted wall bounce is unsafe which leaves a window open for Goku to poke with jabs. These jabs connect which then gets Oreo to instinctively block allowing Chad to casually walk up and land a dragon rush. Chad drops the combo but then sacrifices 2 meters to safely tag Gohan in.


Good post. The video you posted was removed but I watched it on another channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJGq1nx-1oo

At 2:00, Oreo dropped that combo because he let Goku hit the floor right?

User Info: DrunkenPilot72

DrunkenPilot72
1 year ago#39
Gianto posted...
Good post. The video you posted was removed but I watched it on another channel.



At 2:00, Oreo dropped that combo because he let Goku hit the floor right?


Thanks, I'll go back later and update the time stamps.

As for the first dropped combo, Oreo's Cell missed the level 3 not because Goku hit the floor but rather he let too much time pass between hits allowing Goku to recover. You hear the commentors mention the OTG properties which means the level 3 hits "on the ground". Oreo connects with that combo later as Chad is sliding across the ground.
PSN: vyers72
FC: 0860-3464-0095

User Info: SgtGalaxy

SgtGalaxy
1 year ago#40
metalx88 posted...
DrunkenPilot72 posted...
@metalx88 posted...
Follow up question, and my finally noob curiosity, when you stated that the feel ASW games had would be a good start, does that mean mechanic wise, button inputs, or possibly both?


Both, the only thing missing is the 3v3 format. Individual characters will feel closer to DBFZ characters (button notations, high mobility, etc) so you'll get more comfortable with picking up individual characters but you'll miss out on team building dynamics (Goku will play closer to Ragna/Sol but no teams).

UMvC3 is the opposite, you'll learn team building mechanics but individual characters are going to feel very different (Goku will play nothing like Ryu/Wolverine but you can experiment with team building fundementals).


You have been a massive help. I'll be picking up Blaze Blue, and permitting I get comfortable will be waiting for DBZF.


Blazblue is pretty complex but the tutorials help a lot, if you wanna play some sets add me im down.

PSN:FallenRX
this game is about winning, If you had the option of a 1) Big d*** or 2) a small d***, would you choose 2 because it took more skill? Thought not"
-Bokkin
  1. Boards
  2. Dragon Ball FighterZ
  3. PSA: 2D and 3v3 overview for newbies - DBZF and you