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  3. Quick and Dirty Damage Mechanics (not actually quick or dirty)

User Info: Reimys

Reimys
2 years ago#21
The UnLucky Cat posted...
At first I was wondering what the heck "Weapon Effectiveness" meant, since I was pretty sure natural Weapon Triangle was straight up added to Triangle Adept or Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald weapons, not separately. Like, did you mean the raw effectiveness of the weapon itself, Damage(Mt), or in-combat buffs/debuffs attached to weapons?

But then I realized you meant the "Effective Against [unit type]" bonus damage. I guess technically that's only on the weapon itself (discounting Svalinn Shield), at least so far.

Yes, weapon effectiveness when I use it refers to weapons that have the 'Effective against x' tag on them, like Falchion against dragons, bows against fliers, hammers against armors, etc. The trait is tied to the weapon but it affects your entire attack as a whole (else Falchion would be a sad +8 bonus only!), unlike in the main games where it multiplies the weapon MT by 3.

Etria posted...
I suppose this is better than mine at this point.

I'll request mine to be unstickied.

Oh, can we not have two pinned topics? Yours is a better intro to basics, mine is a little more technical and assumes the person knows some basic mechanics going in since I don't actually explain my terminology too much.
3DS FC: 4656 - 7963 - 4906;
IGNs: Y Mimosa (????); AS Cinquefoil (????); M Emii (1328)
(edited 2 years ago)

User Info: CyclonSilver

CyclonSilver
2 years ago#22
Etria posted...
I suppose this is better than mine at this point.

I'll request mine to be unstickied.

I don't think you should. The subject matter really isn't the same.
Kurt Hectic never wanted to be a hero. He was content with his life, and wanted to live out his years in quiet dignified anonymity.
Sadly, it was not to be.
(edited 2 years ago)

User Info: Enulf

Enulf
2 years ago#23
This is amazing, screenshots and concise explanations! Also, your nickname is Rei? Lol.

I can't think of anything you missed, other than maybe Lonqu's Glimmer skill (+50% damage)? I'm guessing that Night Sky/Glimmer would add to the Attack stat after WTA/WTD is calculated, as in Glacies, and not before, as in -blade weapons.

This certainly does help because I often have units surviving at low health in training tower, or dying because of miscalcs. My miscalcs have always been because I forgot about buffs or skills though, and I did know about the truncating decimals from a previous topic. Knowing the order and how they are added is helpful though.
What time is it?

User Info: Reimys

Reimys
2 years ago#24
CyclonSilver posted...
Etria posted...
I suppose this is better than mine at this point.

I'll request mine to be unstickied.

I don't think you should. The subject matter really isn't the same.

That too. They really do cover different things.

Enulf posted...
This is amazing, screenshots and concise explanations! Also, your nickname is Rei? Lol.

I can't think of anything you missed, other than maybe Lonqu's Glimmer skill (+50% damage)? I'm guessing that Night Sky/Glimmer would add to the Attack stat after WTA/WTD is calculated, as in Glacies, and not before, as in -blade weapons.

This certainly does help because I often have units surviving at low health in training tower, or dying because of miscalcs. My miscalcs have always been because I forgot about buffs or skills though, and I did know about the truncating decimals from a previous topic. Knowing the order and how they are added is helpful though.

It's something I'll respond to, at the very least!

Glimmer... Glimmer, damage %+ types of skills I don't really like. By nature they work best when your damage is already high, and do very little to help you if your damage is low. Ergo, they tend to make already secured kills overkill and don't tend to push low damage over the threshold of 'high enough'. You will generally gain more damage out of the Dragon Gaze line than the Night Sky line, though Astra does gain a much more substantial modifier... still, if your damage is low enough, an extra 150% isn't helping all that much.

http://i.imgur.com/nCTQTYe.png
Peri after Eirika boost.

http://i.imgur.com/FrCIRL8.png
I had to find a tankier unit for this because Peri shreds squishies regardless of Glimmer. Good illustration though.

http://i.imgur.com/1vzyQF2.png http://i.imgur.com/s5eWz1g.png
...She seems way too happy about this.

At 4 damage per attack, a Glimmer boosted hit simply does 6 damage- exactly as advertised. +50% damage. Since it's a mod based off damage it gets factored in after all other calculations except for defensive skill procs, which seem to resolve last.

Compare to if Peri had been running Luna (skill inheritance soon?) instead:
Atk after WTD = 47 - floor(0.2*47)
= 47 - 9 = 38
Damage = 38 - [34 - floor(0.5*34)]
= 38 - (34 - 17) = 38 - 17 = 21
Still not amazing, Peri was never made for running into armors, but much better than Glimmer's 6, you know?

Most proc skills technically ignore WTA/WTD, mostly, but the Night Sky/Glimmer/Astra line is different since they scale off of damage, not attack, and consequently are indirectly affected by WTA/WTD.

Though that reminds me I actually probably should do a quick thing on Draconic Gaze/Aura/Fang sooner or later. ...In a bit, maybe; I'm looking at my typoes in my posts from yesterday and cringing now that I can't edit them anymore.
3DS FC: 4656 - 7963 - 4906;
IGNs: Y Mimosa (????); AS Cinquefoil (????); M Emii (1328)

User Info: Rainrir

Rainrir
2 years ago#25
Oh wait. I see it now. Blarraven allows ETA vs colorless.

Makes sense now.

I assume that the weapons like Falchion and Hammer only adds to damage and does not help on defense
(edited 2 years ago)

User Info: Reimys

Reimys
2 years ago#26
Rainrir posted...
Oh wait. I see it now. Blarraven allows ETA vs colorless.

Makes sense now.

I assume that the weapons like Falchion and Hammer only adds to damage and does not help on defense

You are correct, they certainly do not, given that Lucina, Chrom, and Marth still all get wrecked by a blue dragon that can sponge a bit.

And enough people complain about the poor Armorslayer units anyway. But yeah, WTA/WTD gives a defending bonus by lowering incoming attack, Weapon Effectiveness is just a way to hit harder.
3DS FC: 4656 - 7963 - 4906;
IGNs: Y Mimosa (????); AS Cinquefoil (????); M Emii (1328)
(edited 2 years ago)

User Info: AntiAir

AntiAir
2 years ago#27
I guess since this is the topic about technical combat stuff, I'd like to ask something. The effects of Panic only affect the buffs represented by arrows(like the Rallies and Hones), right? As in, they leave Spurs completely alone, no?
Destroyer of aircraft.

User Info: Reimys

Reimys
2 years ago#28
AntiAir posted...
I guess since this is the topic about technical combat stuff, I'd like to ask something. The effects of Panic only affect the buffs represented by arrows(like the Rallies and Hones), right? As in, they leave Spurs completely alone, no?

Sorry for the delay, but correct. Panic only affects blue/arrow buffs- the visible ones. The spurs will provide their buff as usual. I can provide screens or you can take my word for it. =v=

A fun quirk of panic is that the effect neither is a debuff nor causes buffs to turn into a debuff, per se. That makes it so that you can't Harsh Command flip a Panic affected buffed unit back to normal, because they already/still are buffed according to the stat readout, it's just that the effect of the buff is reversed so you get the red numbers. I haven't found a reliable place to see if that means you can stack a debuff and a Panic-flipped buff on one stat though, but with the way it seems to work it might be possible to debuff beyond 7. Not remotely practical, but.
3DS FC: 4656 - 7963 - 4906;
IGNs: Y Mimosa (????); AS Cinquefoil (????); M Emii (1328)

User Info: HirosakiShadow

HirosakiShadow
2 years ago#29
I don't know if anybody here finds this useful, but I've always found it marvelously easy to just use this process for WTA calculations.

Every increment of 5 points to a unit's attack adds or subtracts 1 point in regards to the weapon triangle-rounded down, of course. It is much easier than trying to work with percentages, because it just uses everyone's inherently trained *hopefully* knowledge of basic math. It's the same math, but with this you will never have to look at anything other than a whole number-thus eliminating the step of rounding from potential user error.

Thus, regarding ATK:
1-5=+-1
6-10=+-2
11-15=+-3
16-20=+-4
etc...

Using basic math:

A character with 47 attack has 38 at disadvantage, because 47/5=9, 47-9=38.
A character with 32 attack has 38 at advantage, because 32/5=6. 32+6=38
Etc..

I was, however, surprised to find that weapon effectiveness does make a difference when calculated first or second if ATK is equal to or greater than 44. Kudos to Reimys for this discovery. I would likely have been caught lazily unaware if this had happened to me.

44 attack is just high enough that I would chance to call a scenario that has an attack in those high ranges AND possess BOTH a weapon triangle dis/advantage AND a weapon effective against the victim a rare occurrence, so I can imagine it to be easy to overlook for someone not paying close attention.
Back in Business

User Info: Reimys

Reimys
2 years ago#30
Not to be nitpicky, I understand what you're saying, but the first part of what you posted contradicts your examples- if we continued the pattern then 21-25 =+-5, 26-30 = +-6, 31-35 = +-7, yet you give the example of 32/5 =6.

Your specific examples are correct, but your listed values need an upward offset of 5. 0-4 attack value should grant no bonus via advantage, because they'd round down to 0.

But yes, that's also a good and simple way of keeping track of it. Since the bonus is 20% and rounds down to an integer, effectively every five attack grants one bonus via advantage/disadvantage.
3DS FC: 4656 - 7963 - 4906;
IGNs: Y Mimosa (????); AS Cinquefoil (????); M Emii (1328)
(edited 2 years ago)
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