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  3. Does anyone have a good reason for siding with Edelgard? (CF route spoilers)

User Info: darkmoon6789

darkmoon6789
2 days ago#161
Skandrae posted...
Even this central point though...I gotta disagree with.

Because....everything Edelgard believes is factually wrong.

Everything she thinks Rhea is responsible for, everything she thinks she did, what she thinks her motives are and her understanding of the events that "saving humanity" consisted of (remember, she thinks it's a bald faced lie)...is wrong.

Her understanding of the entire situation is based on factually false information.
Maybe so, but that doesn't change her intentions. It is getting more obvious to me that the truth is that neither are fully good nor evil. Both Edelgard and are misguided and misinformed.

Edelgard is ultimately a good person who believed she was fighting for people's freedom, the fact that she was misinformed makes her story a tragedy

User Info: Skandrae

Skandrae
2 days ago#162
darkmoon6789 posted...
Maybe so, but that doesn't change her intentions. It is getting more obvious to me that the truth is that neither are fully good nor evil. Both Edelgard and are misguided and misinformed.

Edelgard is ultimately a good person who believed she was fighting for people's freedom, the fact that she was misinformed makes her story a tragedy

Sure, but I would argue that the actions she took to realize what she was fighting for is what made her evil. You can't say she had good intentions, thus she was good, discounting the whole expansionist warmongering thing. Good intentions don't excuse what goes on along the way.

Heck, she didn't even explore other options - at the very academy she went to was Hanneman, a guy who ends up mass-producing crests for anyone to have and basically solving the whole problem from an armchair. She could've sat on her thumbs and done nothing for almost the same result.

But back to the central point - my original argument is that in-story, Byleth logically has zilch reason to side with her - he/she should hate her on reveal, and from an out of story standpoint, the player has no reason to side with her, because we are told point blank that she is wrong.
Witty game-related comment.

User Info: darkmoon6789

darkmoon6789
2 days ago#163
Skandrae posted...
Sure, but I would argue that the actions she took to realize what she was fighting for is what made her evil. You can't say she had good intentions, thus she was good, discounting the whole expansionist warmongering thing. Good intentions don't excuse what goes on along the way.

Heck, she didn't even explore other options - at the very academy she went to was Hanneman, a guy who ends up mass-producing crests for anyone to have and basically solving the whole problem from an armchair. She could've sat on her thumbs and done nothing for almost the same result.

But back to the central point - my original argument is that in-story, Byleth logically has zilch reason to side with her - he/she should hate her on reveal, and from an out of story standpoint, the player has no reason to side with her, because we are told point blank that she is wrong.
At that point in the story not much is clear, Rhea has shown signs of cruelty and occation underneath that motherly persona of hers, and the very language she uses makes me suspicious (like "purging apostates", "punishing sinners"). If Rhea is innocent this is a deliberate misdirect on the games part, but I don't think Rhea is fully innocent either.

I think the intention is very much on Byleth's part that it is supposed to be a sign of affection, and that he trusts Edelgard even if he/she has no reason to. It is what makes that moment so beautiful, joining someone you care about even though you know you shouldn't.

Good intentions does also prevent someone from being a complete monster, I think people are overly obsessed with actions, this level of obsession with punishment is not healthy for anyone, it drives you down a dark path, just like Dimitri. He did the right thing in the end, his offer of mercy was the correct course of action, but Edelgard also made her position and she wanted to die.

I personally believe that no matter what mistakes person has done, they can always come back to the light, it is never too late and we should always try to make that happen. At the very least as long as that person is not a danger to others, if someone needs to be killed to protect other people, then you need to do so without judgement.

User Info: FFT-Fan

FFT-Fan
2 days ago#164
I wondered the same but feel better now after reading some stuff in the library in Abyss. Church does some pretty bad stuff and if Edelgard read stuff in the library in Abyss it seems more reasonable to me that she would become more opposed to the church. I checked out the normal library afterwards(Also on CF currently) and there's "Noble records" which are "for use by the Church of Seiros, students forbidden to remove or peruse". If the others from Black Eagles or who were recruited also read these, it becomes a bit more reasonable for them to side with Edelgard.

If I were to try to self insert I think it's reasonable to decide that way if knowing the church banned many things like printing press, did experimentation on people and burned books to cover up events in the past.

User Info: darkmoon6789

darkmoon6789
2 days ago#165
FFT-Fan posted...
I wondered the same but feel better now after reading some stuff in the library in Abyss. Church does some pretty bad stuff and if Edelgard read stuff in the library in Abyss it seems more reasonable to me that she would become more opposed to the church. I checked out the normal library afterwards(Also on CF currently) and there's "Noble records" which are "for use by the Church of Seiros, students forbidden to remove or peruse". If the others from Black Eagles or who were recruited also read these, it becomes a bit more reasonable for them to side with Edelgard.

If I were to try to self insert I think it's reasonable to decide that way if knowing the church banned many things like printing press, did experimentation on people and burned books to cover up events in the past.
I think that Rhea is afraid of humanity, developing the level of technology that destroyed her people ever again. Not that is make any of this okay, by any means.

I need to read it for myself, but if what is claimed is true, then that is unforgivable, and more than enough cause to start a war.

User Info: Skandrae

Skandrae
2 days ago#166
darkmoon6789 posted...
At that point in the story not much is clear, Rhea has shown signs of cruelty and occation underneath that motherly persona of hers, and the very language she uses makes me suspicious (like "purging apostates", "punishing sinners"). If Rhea is innocent this is a deliberate misdirect on the games part, but I don't think Rhea is fully innocent either.

I think the intention is very much on Byleth's part that it is supposed to be a sign of affection, and that he trusts Edelgard even if he/she has no reason to. It is what makes that moment so beautiful, joining someone you care about even though you know you shouldn't.

You literally are joining someone who just pulled off their mask and revealed themselves to be on Team killed-your-dad in front of you.

The game has not demonstrated anywhere near the amount of affection between Byleth and Edelgard to counteract that. And whatever "cruelty" Rhea has shown, the bad guys Edelgard has revealed to associate themselves with have done waaaaay worse. Remember when they turned an entire village into bloodthirsty monsters?



Good intentions does also prevent someone from being a complete monster, I think people are overly obsessed with actions, this level of obsession with punishment is not healthy for anyone, it drives you down a dark path, just like Dimitri. He did the right thing in the end, his offer of mercy was the correct course of action, but Edelgard also made her position and she wanted to die.

I personally believe that no matter what mistakes person has done, they can always come back to the light, it is never too late and we should always try to make that happen. At the very least as long as that person is not a danger to others, if someone needs to be killed to protect other people, then you need to do so without judgement.

Actions are what define a person. You can talk a good game all you want, but if your actions cause pain and death on a massive scale, intentionally at that, that is how you are and how you should be defined.
Edelgard, when a hand of mercy is extended to her, tries to kill the person offering it. Edelgard never once even thinks about apologizing to Byleth for her role in his father's death. Edelgard achieved her stated goal of taking down the church, then goes off and conquers two other countries. Edelgard's actions, methods and propensity for violence when people are begging her to stop mark her as not a good person.

darkmoon6789 posted...
I need to read it for myself, but if what is claimed is true, then that is unforgivable, and more than enough cause to start a war.

Linhardt points out some of the books are forged. Which ones, who knows?
But more false information somewhere in there.
Witty game-related comment.
(edited 2 days ago)

User Info: Arcangel22

Arcangel22
1 day ago#167
Skandrae posted...
Even this central point though...I gotta disagree with.

Because....everything Edelgard believes is factually wrong.

Everything she thinks Rhea is responsible for, everything she thinks she did, what she thinks her motives are and her understanding of the events that "saving humanity" consisted of (remember, she thinks it's a bald faced lie)...is wrong.

Her understanding of the entire situation is based on factually false information.
I don't mean to sound mean when I say this, but this is rather irrelevant. Again, like I said, Edelgard's methods are questionable for sure, there's no questioning that. But you cannot argue the fact that Crests have twisted humanity's values in Fodlan. I can guarantee you Sylvain, Ingrid, Marianne, Lysithea, and Mercedes are just a handful of people that getting rid of Crests would benefit.

Whether you think Edelgard is a good or bad person is irrelevant, the fact remains that Crests are more of a burden on Fodlan now than they were a thousand years ago, and Edelgard is offering a means to change all that. If she had been a bit more rational and actually talked with Claude and Dimitri more, maybe they could've created a true golden age for Fodlan rather than having bloodshed pave the way to that future, but unfortunately that's just not meant to be at this point. I think she would've been surprised that Claude likely would've supported her if she kept things peaceful.
The Internet: 90% of it sucks, but every now and then...you find that 10% that's even worse. You're here just like me? Welcome to the 10%.

User Info: darkmoon6789

darkmoon6789
1 day ago#168
Skandrae posted...
You literally are joining someone who just pulled off their mask and revealed themselves to be on Team killed-your-dad in front of you.

The game has not demonstrated anywhere near the amount of affection between Byleth and Edelgard to counteract that. And whatever "cruelty" Rhea has shown, the bad guys Edelgard has revealed to associate themselves with have done waaaaay worse. Remember when they turned an entire village into bloodthirsty monsters?

Actions are what define a person. You can talk a good game all you want, but if your actions cause pain and death on a massive scale, intentionally at that, that is how you are and how you should be defined.
Edelgard, when a hand of mercy is extended to her, tries to kill the person offering it. Edelgard never once even thinks about apologizing to Byleth for her role in his father's death. Edelgard achieved her stated goal of taking down the church, then goes off and conquers two other countries. Edelgard's actions, methods and propensity for violence when people are begging her to stop mark her as not a good person.

Linhardt points out some of the books are forged. Which ones, who knows?
But more false information somewhere in there.
Edelgard has also clearly been taking a stand against her supposed allies, especially after Remire(even if nobody believed her), and Edelgard was the one who served Kronya and Solon on a plate to Byleth avenge his/her father's death as a means for him/her to get over their grief. She even killed Solon in my playthrough. This is not how it goes down on the rails, but with the Black Eagles, it is.

Edelgard is also clearly shocked by the murder of Jeralt, might have been a real eyes, but she was clearly not in on the plan. And she seems genuinely sorry about the whole thing when interacting with Byleth shortly afterwards.

It also needs to be addressed that Edelgard never intended to kill Dimitri in that scene, she intended to provoke him into killing her. One thing that is consistent between routes is that she wants to die, she literally begs Byleth to do it in verdant wind. But in the end, that is not the same Edelgard as in crimson flower and the shouldn't judge this version based on the one in azure moon.

Also, this game really don't like making it easy to determine what information is true or not, does it? But it is likely that Edelgard believed the information in those books. I wouldn't think all of it is false. The question is to determine what is true or not. But we will likely never know the answer

User Info: Spacefrisian

Spacefrisian
1 day ago#169
She wants to change they way things go, instead of handing stuff over because your birthmark on your behind is magical she wants to change it to what you can do and worked for.

Thats the main reason for me to join her.
Sanctus Dominus Infernus ad Astra
Regus Kobalus....cast unholy fire

User Info: Jawaun

Jawaun
1 day ago#170
Spacefrisian posted...
She wants to change they way things go, instead of handing stuff over because your birthmark on your behind is magical she wants to change it to what you can do and worked for.

Thats the main reason for me to join her.
no she doesn't if she wanted that she would have gotten rid of nobility entirely
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