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User Info: SavageJester

SavageJester
4 days ago#251
Panthera posted...
This is a deliberately worthless unit

edit: Like this fails to 2RKO even on the fighters he doubles on the map after he joins (since he barely does anything on his join map), and he doesn't double all of them by any means. There are enemies he doesn't 3 or even 4RKO here. He does chip damage so pitiful it doesn't even really set up kills for other units. He's literally Wolt in terms of combat. What is the point of making this guy incapable of contributing anything besides carrying Roy places?
Please tell me you're kidding. This also accounts for hard mode bonuses as well.
(edited 4 days ago)

User Info: Panthera

Panthera
4 days ago#252
Why would I be kidding? He literally can't even chip in meaningful ways. Why would I ever deploy him when he can't fight on enemy phase the vast majority of the time, can't do useful damage even when he does, and accomplishes nothing on player phase that any other combat unit couldn't have because 4RKOing is in reach for anyone you actually use? All he does is rescue, and any mounted unit can do that. and they're all better at combat than he is now. For reference, even if Sue is entirely unchanged (something most people don't agree with since her bases are pretty questionable) she's utterly s***ting on him at his join time due to actually doubling meaningful amounts of enemies and having Killer Bow access with only one or two less strength. And when Sue is s***ting on your combat, your combat is pretty awful.

The only way this makes any sense is if you're talking about leaving HM bonuses intact but then talking about his normal mode bases for some reason, but that's nonsensical and confusing to do (and is exactly why I say we should just talk about HM bases, since those are what actually exist in practice on hard mode)
Meow!
(edited 4 days ago)

User Info: Dekadense

Dekadense
4 days ago#253
Why would you rate FE6/7 units without HM bonusses?

Either way, Shin is iffy with 9 STR and D bows. 14 SPD for doubling and a huge 18 AID for carrying is sort of nice.

But Klein also joins 1 to 2 chapters after with 16 STR, 13 SPD, A bows and comes promoted.

Klein suffers in big maps, but can use Silver Bows without investment and good STR to shoot Wyverns. Shin is cool if you get blessed and is really good at rescuing, but 9 STR is a bit below the curve at that point and D bows is a rough start.

User Info: SavageJester

SavageJester
4 days ago#254
I'm not sure what Panthera is talking about. The man literally has good bases for his level and good growths as well that will keep him strong. He can rescue, great movement, canto, and will most likely surpass Klein (who has a 35 growth in strength) in strength and speed. Plus his promotion will not leave him bowlocked.
(edited 4 days ago)

User Info: Panthera

Panthera
4 days ago#255
He needs to reach 20/1 to match Klein's base strength. With your proposed nerf he'll need 9 levels to catch up to Klain's base speed. You are literally suggesting to nerf him to the point he doesn't even 4HKO, *and* doesn't even double all that much by nerfing his already bad normal mode bases. 7 strength and 9 speed doesn't accomplish much of anything heading into chapter 10. A unit that relies on having above average offense to be viable being nerfed into trash tier offense (he's losing out to guys like Lot now, maybe Treck, and base level Noah) doesn't make sense. Again, he's vastly inferior to what Sue will be like at that point, and Sue is a unit that most think could do with at least a slight buff because of how sketchy her bases her. Who is going to deploy Sue: The Bad Edition?
Meow!

User Info: Whisky

Whisky
4 days ago#256
Hold on.

@SavageJester
You said that he still gets HM bonuses right? That seems to be where the misunderstanding is. You made it confusing because you stated for him to have specific numbers, and we all assumed that those would be his stats in HM. For this discussion we are mostly talking about HM. Panthera and I agreed that we should assume units get there HM bonuses by default unless stated otherwise in our discussions. Otherwise, if we balance units for HM, then the units that get HM bonuses would suck in NM or vice versa. Panthera is saying that Shin in NM would suck with your suggestions.

And with that being said...

@Panthera
Do you think those nerfs would be okay if we let keep him his HM bonuses and make those his bases for both NM and HM? His bases would be:

HP_Str_Skl_Spd_Luc_Def_Res
29__9__10__13___8___8___1

It’s only a very small nerf. It might not make much of a difference.

By the way. That’s the same Def as Wendy.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
(edited 4 days ago)

User Info: Panthera

Panthera
4 days ago#257
That's basically what he gets with bad RNG on his HM bonuses (I think the 9 strength is what he gets half the time) so yeah he'd be fine with it. I don't think he actually needs a nerf, he's pretty good but not godlike even at his role and his role is not one that lends itself to dominating, but if you feel like essentially rounding down his HM bonuses that would be a nerf that still leaves him good
Meow!

User Info: Whisky

Whisky
4 days ago#258
Geese
Normal base stats:
HP_Str_Skl_Spd_Luc_Def_Res
33__10__9___9___9___8___0

His stats if you promote immediately when he joins:
HP_Str_Skl_Spd_Luc_Def_Res
38__13_13__10___9___11__0

Not too bad. Axes having such low accuracy is probably his biggest problem. He is more accurate than Gonzalez but not nearly as strong or as fast. Comparing his averages to Lott, he has more Str and less Def. The problem is that we determined that Lott already needed to be buffed. Lott is (not) the biggest competition for Geese. Rutger and Dieck are. Dieck is probably a better Axe user than Geese for the most part. If you promote Geese immediately, he has 10 Spd. That’s what Dieck has at base. And now Geese has to compete with all the other Hero Crest users that we buffed as well.

We could make him a pre-promote. If we don’t do that then I guess just increase his base stats and also make Axes more accurate. How about something like:
HP_Str_Skl_Spd_Luc_Def_Res
36__13_12__12__10___8___5

Is that good?
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
(edited 4 days ago)

User Info: Panthera

Panthera
4 days ago#259
That has him doubling all the fighters in chapter 11 and some of the archers, but he's not 2HKOing without a weapon he won't double much if anything with, so...yeah that's looking pretty solid. His offense will be pretty good but not dominant and he's still on foot so he needs to have respectable combat to be worth fielding.
Meow!

User Info: SavageJester

SavageJester
4 days ago#260
With Geese increase his skill stat from 30 to 35 percent and his defense from 20 to 30 percent. Increase his base skill from 9 to 10, speed 9 to 10, defense 8 to 9, and resistance 0 to 2.
(edited 4 days ago)
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