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  3. Random thought: Edelgard's multiple motivations often get confused/equated

User Info: superxgaga

superxgaga
1 week ago#11
CorrinKamuiHype posted...
I think maybe just a few lines of dialogue to show that some people or alot or a decent amount did better with the new system around even during war. I think they could've improved Randy or Ladislava to be stronger or more relevant. It kind of sucks because there aren't many characters who rise up the ranks in Edelgard's side except Dorothea and Caspar. Even then, if they get recruited, that leaves Edelgard with no talented ,hard working ,rising up the ranks characters that came from her rule.
Theres a guy in the monastery talking about Ladi, saying she is hand picked by Edelgard due to her Diligence and talents, she is also very down to earth despite being emperor's guard captain, and good look to boot. And Randy talking bout through hardwork hes able to rise up in ranks through out the 5 year skip, since hes like caspar with no inheritance.
El, give me your blessing! Kingdom, Alliance, Church? I'll kill em all! When I do, you are no longer Kotei-sama, You will be known as Edelgard Megami-Sama!!

User Info: FaroresWinds

FaroresWinds
1 week ago#12
rukn posted...
I wouldn’t regard Edelgard as an imperialist because she doesn’t use conquest as a tool to exploit the other nations for the primary benefit of the empire, she is conducting a revolutionary war and considers the people of Fodlan to be a single nation divided up by the church. That’s why she just stops at Fodlan, and grants Brigid independence. In my opinion she is a nationalist who believes that the people of Fodlan given their similar history, language ,ethnicity are a single people. Note how the emperor makes an oath for all of Fodlan rather than an oath about the empire. Also the empire has a history of defending Fodlan from invasion like in the case of the Almyran invasion where only the Empire had the alliance’s back.

You might of course disagree with whether she has a right to interfere in other nations. To me her actions are justified because:
1 She makes all the people in conquered territory into citizens and gives the common folk in each their rights, which btw they never had prior to the war
2 The Kingdom is not a force for good. It is a brutal genocidal overly traditional regime that massacred an entire nation of brown folks on the basis of trumped up charges. It also has a history of attempting to occupy Alliance territory and was overthrown quite recently.
3 The alliance is a decentralised playground for the nobility that is on the verge of a civil war between nobles that want to join the empire and nobles who want independence. So it makes sense imo for the empire to use its position to emancipate it’s common folk.
4 The church gives the nobility it’s divine right. It is armed and political conflicts in the church break out into violent battles. The southern church hugely destabilised the empire very recently. I don’t see why the empire should tolerate such a destabilising militarised order when it’s political agenda is at odds with Edelgard’s.

Okay as for the China parallel Edelgard would likely be pushed in two directions. At one end she would prefer a unified China and at the other she would want a population that has its political rights. Imo she would pick giving the people political rights since Honkong is part of China it just has autonomy.

She may regard Foldan as one nation (and considered the Church having meddles into affairs they couldn't have), but it could be argued that the Kingdom and Alliance earned their own sovereignty long ago, regardless of how it happened. They may speak the same language and share a major religion, but they've had hundreds of years to create unique identities and cultures. Edelgard may see them as one, but the other nations do not. As far as the other nations are concerned, their issues are their own and theirs to settle, and having someone come in and say, "We were one long ago, let's be one again" by force isn't exactly a good image. So, I do agree that she may not see herself as a imperialist, but not seeing yourself as one doesn't equal not being one. Is she actually one? Meh, to me she kind of is. Regardless of her reasons, good or bad, she still invaded two countries, unilaterally. I do think she saw herself as someone doing what is right for Foldan, though.

User Info: HayashiTakara

HayashiTakara
1 week ago#13
Silent_Noir posted...
Callanthe posted...

For a somewhat exaggerated modern parallel, think current China (pls no censorship or too much arguing... maybe this is a mistake to bring up).
I'm sure the Chinese government thinks they're doing a good deed to the people of Hong Kong by "taking back" Hong Kong, which they believe rightfully belongs to them. And of course, the protesters of Hong Kong would vehemently disagree--they believe the people of Hong Kong deserve the autonomy to decide their own government.


Really? I see the exact opposite. Rhea has been rewriting and censoring history to glorify Sothis, crests and relics. She's been in power longer than anyone in Fodlan and executes anyone on the spot for crossing her. Even creating "divine laws" in her bible that gives her license to do whatever she wanted in the name of the goddess(which is herself). Edelgard may have started chaos but no revolution is without. And honestly, every big country more or less has done imperialism, Faerghus did it to Leicester just the same. In Edelgard x Hubert's ending however, revealed that they help ensure the people's independence. So while her means may come across as imperialism, her end goal was not.


why do people keep spouting this s*** without mentioning the motive?
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User Info: Callanthe

Callanthe
1 week ago#14
Silent_Noir posted...


Really? I see the exact opposite. Rhea has been rewriting and censoring history to glorify Sothis, crests and relics. She's been in power longer than anyone in Fodlan and executes anyone on the spot for crossing her. Even creating "divine laws" in her bible that gives her license to do whatever she wanted in the name of the goddess(which is herself). Edelgard may have started chaos but no revolution is without. And honestly, every big country more or less has done imperialism, Faerghus did it to Leicester just the same. In Edelgard x Hubert's ending however, revealed that they help ensure the people's independence. So while her means may come across as imperialism, her end goal was not.


I understand Edelgard's perspective that Rhea is some censorship-happy tyrant, but ultimately IMO this is a rather drastic exaggeration of Rhea's powers/motivations to better facilitate the whole "only war can topple this oppression" rhetoric.

It's true Rhea revised some parts of history (for which she had relatively understandable motives). But even in the present day, she isn't actively putting down free thinkers or anyone trying to come up with new technology. Even her "glorification of Sothis, crests, and relics" was relatively harmless in its origins--she had good intentions in trying to honor these last remnants of her family. It's heavily implied (in Rhea's own holy book!) that these glorifications became warped into exaggerated justifications of the nobility system by who else than... the actual nobility themselves.

The most controlling thing she did was start the church in the first place. I agree Rhea has indeed stood by apathetic when she could have stepped in to make a difference. That inaction is a sin. But at least as far as I can see, Rhea would be equally as indifferent (AKA not get in the way or bother with interfering) if someone was enacting social reform towards a meritocracy. The onus is kind of on humanity to improve itself.

And yes, I agree that some of the teachings Rhea defends herself with in the Holy Book are creepy. But people can regularly ignore her teachings. For what it's worth, Rhea also does not go full execution happy unless they try to kill her or steal the remains of her dead family. (I think we can all agree her bloodthirst is overboard, but she is never shown to launch the first strike on anyone--she just retaliates with her full force.)

[Also by imperialism, I'm specifically referring to the desire to extend one's rule over other sovereign nations. Edelgard loves using rhetoric about how the Kingdom and the Alliance rightfully belong to the Empire and should be reclaimed by the Empire. (This is rhetoric that TWSITD loves, so I'm not particularly surprised it rubbed off on Edelgard.) Just look at how she talks even in your first encounter with her in the prologue. I'm sure she believes she is making the lives of people who live in those territories better, but there is no guarantee that she is an objective judge of this. ]

User Info: Silent_Noir

Silent_Noir
1 week ago#15
Hayas***akara posted...

why do people keep spouting this s*** without mentioning the motive?


You mean the motive of establishing a theocratic rule on the continent, placing herself in leadership as proxy of a dead dragon whilst simultaneously trying to resurrect said dead dragon? Rhea and Validar should be bffs.
FC: 3926-5772-3494

User Info: Silent_Noir

Silent_Noir
1 week ago#16
Callanthe posted...

I understand Edelgard's perspective that Rhea is some censorship-happy tyrant, but ultimately IMO this is a rather drastic exaggeration of Rhea's powers/motivations to better facilitate the whole "only war can topple this oppression" rhetoric.

It's true Rhea revised some parts of history (for which she had relatively understandable motives). But even in the present day, she isn't actively putting down free thinkers or anyone trying to come up with new technology. Even her "glorification of Sothis, crests, and relics" was relatively harmless in its origins--she had good intentions in trying to honor these last remnants of her family. It's heavily implied (in Rhea's own holy book!) that these glorifications became warped into exaggerated justifications of the nobility system by who else than... the actual nobility themselves.

The most controlling thing she did was start the church in the first place. I agree Rhea has indeed stood by apathetic when she could have stepped in to make a difference. That inaction is a sin. But at least as far as I can see, Rhea would be equally as indifferent (AKA not get in the way or bother with interfering) if someone was enacting social reform towards a meritocracy. The onus is kind of on humanity to improve itself.

And yes, I agree that some of the teachings Rhea defends herself with in the Holy Book are creepy. But people can regularly ignore her teachings. For what it's worth, Rhea also does not go full execution happy unless they try to kill her or steal the remains of her dead family. (I think we can all agree her bloodthirst is overboard, but she is never shown to launch the first strike on anyone--she just retaliates with her full force.)

[Also by imperialism, I'm specifically referring to the desire to extend one's rule over other sovereign nations. Edelgard loves using rhetoric about how the Kingdom and the Alliance rightfully belong to the Empire and should be reclaimed by the Empire. (This is rhetoric that TWSITD loves, so I'm not particularly surprised it rubbed off on Edelgard.) Just look at how she talks even in your first encounter with her in the prologue. I'm sure she believes she is making the lives of people who live in those territories better, but there is no guarantee that she is an objective judge of this. ]


The problem with Rhea is that at her very core she puts Sothis far above than anything else. You'll see in the CF path that she'll torch an entire town just cause. She experimented on people even though she knows its wrong but did it anyway. Should a extremely obsessive person be in power? If Sothis tells her to wipe out humanity do you think she'll hesitate? Imo, you want to make a religion? Fine, but I don't think you should have any semblance of power, including crest stones.

You can ignore her teachings, but you can't reject them as their doctrine says denying the existence of their goddess is a sin. Its the same as "you don't have to voice your political stance but you can't say anything that can be seen as against the structure, otherwise they'll be consequences." Isn't that what's happening with the whole Blizzard/NBA fiasco right now?

If by imperialism means to extend one's rule over other sovereign nations, isn't that what Rhea also does? Exercising her private military across other nations and carrying out judge, jury and executioner. I don't see the Church asking permission for such things.
FC: 3926-5772-3494

User Info: Drexciya

Drexciya
1 week ago#17
rukn posted...
I wouldn’t regard Edelgard as an imperialist because she doesn’t use conquest as a tool to exploit the other nations for the primary benefit of the empire


...But this is literally EXACTLY what happens lmfao. Just because she dresses her actions up under the noble guise of "I'm smashing the crestiarchy!!!!!" doesn't take away from the fact that she invades every sovereign territory in Fodlan, massacres or enslaves it's citizens, then installs corrupt puppet leaders like Cornelia in every conquered territory to enforce her iron will and suppress any counter action taken against the Empire to solidify their political and military dominance across the whole continent.

Oh and lmfao at you calling invading foreign territories "interfering" and calling the Kingdom evil for their actions after the tragedy of Duscur in the rest of your garbage ass rambling that I won't humor by quoting in it's entirety. Did you forget that it was the Empire and their cohorts TWSITD that framed the innocent people of Duscur in an attempt to cover up their crimes of slaughtering the entire Faerghus royal family, and that those "trumped up charges" are entirely their doing?????

I seriously hope these delusional, disturbing mental gymnastics you're going through to defend and exonerate fictional fascists and imperialists doesn't cross over IRL for ACTUAL ones, but with the rise of people like Trump, Bolsonaro, and their ilk across the globe I fear I'd be sadly but unsurprisingly mistaken...

User Info: Zeveria

Zeveria
1 week ago#18
Silent_Noir posted...
Hayas***akara posted...

why do people keep spouting this s*** without mentioning the motive?


You mean the motive of establishing a theocratic rule on the continent, placing herself in leadership as proxy of a dead dragon whilst simultaneously trying to resurrect said dead dragon? Rhea and Validar should be bffs.


Regardless of her motives, it seems pretty clear that Rhea's more or less been in control of Fodlan for some time. Even she admits she's only leading in Sothis' stead and Byleth should take her place and lead Fodlan.
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User Info: rukn

rukn
1 week ago#19
Drexciya posted...
rukn posted...
I wouldn’t regard Edelgard as an imperialist because she doesn’t use conquest as a tool to exploit the other nations for the primary benefit of the empire


...But this is literally EXACTLY what happens lmfao. Just because she dresses her actions up under the noble guise of "I'm smashing the crestiarchy!!!!!" doesn't take away from the fact that she invades every sovereign territory in Fodlan, massacres or enslaves it's citizens, then installs corrupt puppet leaders like Cornelia in every conquered territory to enforce her iron will and suppress any counter action taken against the Empire to solidify their political and military dominance across the whole continent.

Oh and lmfao at you calling invading foreign territories "interfering" and calling the Kingdom evil for their actions after the tragedy of Duscur in the rest of your garbage ass rambling that I won't humor by quoting in it's entirety. Did you forget that it was the Empire and their cohorts TWSITD that framed the innocent people of Duscur in an attempt to cover up their crimes of slaughtering the entire Faerghus royal family, and that those "trumped up charges" are entirely their doing?????

I seriously hope these delusional, disturbing mental gymnastics you're going through to defend and exonerate fictional fascists and imperialists doesn't cross over IRL for ACTUAL ones, but with the rise of people like Trump, Bolsonaro, and their ilk across the globe I fear I'd be sadly but unsurprisingly mistaken...

Of course Edelgard is a slaver and a fascist who has apparently been mass murdering civilians, she doesn’t actually care about Fodlan’s caste system . The Empire was apparently behind Duscur and the poor kingdom nobles had to genocide a whole country for it. Everywhere the empire apparently goes they apparently plant a new Cornelia.

The only one performing inane mental gymnastics is you. Also I get that you would feel validated if I were a fascist but you don't get to head canon reality. My point was that what she is doing ain’t imperialism, because it’s not her aim to create a second class citizenry to exploit. Her war is revolutionary not imperialist, because she is giving commoners the rights they have been denied for a millennia and granting the people in those territories full-fledged citizenship of the empire. The one vassal the empire has she grants independence to, these are not the actions of an imperialist. Lob your accusations at me if trump redistributes wealth, grants immigrants citizenship and protects the weak.

User Info: CoolRed

CoolRed
1 week ago#20
rukn posted...
Drexciya posted...
rukn posted...
I wouldn’t regard Edelgard as an imperialist because she doesn’t use conquest as a tool to exploit the other nations for the primary benefit of the empire


...But this is literally EXACTLY what happens lmfao. Just because she dresses her actions up under the noble guise of "I'm smashing the crestiarchy!!!!!" doesn't take away from the fact that she invades every sovereign territory in Fodlan, massacres or enslaves it's citizens, then installs corrupt puppet leaders like Cornelia in every conquered territory to enforce her iron will and suppress any counter action taken against the Empire to solidify their political and military dominance across the whole continent.

Oh and lmfao at you calling invading foreign territories "interfering" and calling the Kingdom evil for their actions after the tragedy of Duscur in the rest of your garbage ass rambling that I won't humor by quoting in it's entirety. Did you forget that it was the Empire and their cohorts TWSITD that framed the innocent people of Duscur in an attempt to cover up their crimes of slaughtering the entire Faerghus royal family, and that those "trumped up charges" are entirely their doing?????

I seriously hope these delusional, disturbing mental gymnastics you're going through to defend and exonerate fictional fascists and imperialists doesn't cross over IRL for ACTUAL ones, but with the rise of people like Trump, Bolsonaro, and their ilk across the globe I fear I'd be sadly but unsurprisingly mistaken...

Of course Edelgard is a slaver and a fascist who has apparently been mass murdering civilians, she doesn’t actually care about Fodlan’s caste system . The Empire was apparently behind Duscur and the poor kingdom nobles had to genocide a whole country for it. Everywhere the empire apparently goes they apparently plant a new Cornelia.

The only one performing inane mental gymnastics is you. Also I get that you would feel validated if I were a fascist but you don't get to head canon reality. My point was that what she is doing ain’t imperialism, because it’s not her aim to create a second class citizenry to exploit. Her war is revolutionary not imperialist, because she is giving commoners the rights they have been denied for a millennia and granting the people in those territories full-fledged citizenship of the empire. The one vassal the empire has she grants independence to, these are not the actions of an imperialist. Lob your accusations at me if trump redistributes wealth, grants immigrants citizenship and protects the weak.

Imperialism:the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas

Edelgard's an imperialist, don't tdy to dress her actions up and ignore reality
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