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  3. C/D Positioning arts (i.e. Repositioning, Draw Back) are useful on Maddening

User Info: FelurFalas

FelurFalas
1 month ago#11
ArtiRock posted...
Because you can net movement with some of them? That's why. May as well say "if you're good at positioning in GBA fire emblem you wouldn't use rescue."
Actually...I rarely ever use Rescue...or even Warp for that matter. As a matter of fact, even less than repositioning arts. lol

If you are just using them to move across a map faster, then that is not really a good point of argument for them since there is absolutely no incentive for moving faster. Even maps with turn limits or the need to rescue units gives you plenty of time to do so. Not to say that the positioning arts would not speed things, up but I have never had any trouble meeting turn deadlines without them. If there were like, advance wars, then you would have a strong point, but this game is just not the type where that matters as much.
Yorokobi No Ito Wa Canon Tsumugidasu
The Thread of Happiness is Weaved by a Canon

User Info: ArtiRock

ArtiRock
1 month ago#12
FelurFalas posted...
ArtiRock posted...
Because you can net movement with some of them? That's why. May as well say "if you're good at positioning in GBA fire emblem you wouldn't use rescue."
Actually...I rarely ever use Rescue...or even Warp for that matter. As a matter of fact, even less than repositioning arts. lol

If you are just using them to move across a map faster, then that is not really a good point of argument for them since there is absolutely no incentive for moving faster. Even maps with turn limits or the need to rescue units gives you plenty of time to do so. Not to say that the positioning arts would not speed things, up but I have never had any trouble meeting turn deadlines without them. If there were like, advance wars, then you would have a strong point, but this game is just not the type where that matters as much.

Uh... No? You can move people to respond to reinforcements easier, you can move people further than they would normally go for repositioning them in better positions. You not using them for that doesn't mean they aren't useful.
This is the duty of the Grim Angels.

User Info: walterwhite23

walterwhite23
1 month ago#13
Reposition on a flyer is brilliant. I had to flip dedue over the wall to save Hilda.

User Info: FelurFalas

FelurFalas
1 month ago#14
ArtiRock posted...
Uh... No? You can move people to respond to reinforcements easier, you can move people further than they would normally go for repositioning them in better positions. You not using them for that doesn't mean they aren't useful.
You mean the same turn reinforcements that will not let you respond until it is your turn, or the predictable reinforcement that you already know when, where, and how they are going to appear such that you can respond even before without need for re-positioning? Not to say that you cannot use them for such, but that is hardly an advantage to having them when you can achieve the same thing without. You can argue that they would let you achieve better positions a turn faster, but again, outside of rare instances, there is almost no benefits for achieving a goal a turn faster as long as you remain within the chapter's turn limits--at least not against the AI.

I am only saying that they are useless to me, and not that they absolutely have no use at all. However, I am saying that the actual benefits that they give is negligible. If you are only using them to move faster, then that is more of a preference than tactical benefit. It is not like in Advance Wars where moving 1 space faster often means you can capture faster, which means you can deploy faster. Here, the enemies often just wait for you to move. If you were actually using them in the middle of an entanglement, then you might have some valid points to justify their use at least, but that brings up the point again about wasting a unit's turn to reposition another unit.

Now do not get me wrong here. Speed is the life blood of battle, so they have a place, but this game just gives no incentives to capitalize on such capabilities, rendering them more or less a novelty to have. If/when this game gets PvP, however, I will retract my argument.
Yorokobi No Ito Wa Canon Tsumugidasu
The Thread of Happiness is Weaved by a Canon

User Info: Flash2Beasley

Flash2Beasley
1 month ago#15
FelurFalas posted...
ArtiRock posted...
Uh... No? You can move people to respond to reinforcements easier, you can move people further than they would normally go for repositioning them in better positions. You not using them for that doesn't mean they aren't useful.


You mean the same turn reinforcements that will not let you respond until it is your turn, or the predictable reinforcement that you already know when, where, and how they are going to appear such that you can respond even before without need for re-positioning? Not to say that you cannot use them for such, but that is hardly an advantage to having them when you can achieve the same thing without. You can argue that they would let you achieve better positions a turn faster, but again, outside of rare instances, there is almost no benefits for achieving a goal a turn faster as long as you remain within the chapter's turn limits--at least not against the AI.

I am only saying that they are useless to me, and not that they absolutely have no use at all. However, I am saying that the actual benefits that they give is negligible. If you are only using them to move faster, then that is more of a preference than tactical benefit. It is not like in Advance Wars where moving 1 space faster often means you can capture faster, which means you can deploy faster. Here, the enemies often just wait for you to move. If you were actually using them in the middle of an entanglement, then you might have some valid points to justify their use at least, but that brings up the point again about wasting a unit's turn to reposition another unit.

Well first of all, I haven't seen you make a single point yet about a third combat art being more valuable than these tools, and I agree that positioning abilities are generally worth more than a third combat art.

Second, I've found plenty of use for these inside dungeons and cramped quarters creating situations where you can effectively block off a squishy from being attacked after using said squishy for damage. Arguing against the value of these is like arguing against the value of canto or mounts in general, movement is always king in tactical rpg's, there's a reason you get almost no method of naturally increasing a units movement.

User Info: ArtiRock

ArtiRock
1 month ago#16
FelurFalas posted...
ArtiRock posted...
Uh... No? You can move people to respond to reinforcements easier, you can move people further than they would normally go for repositioning them in better positions. You not using them for that doesn't mean they aren't useful.
You mean the same turn reinforcements that will not let you respond until it is your turn, or the predictable reinforcement that you already know when, where, and how they are going to appear such that you can respond even before without need for re-positioning? Not to say that you cannot use them for such, but that is hardly an advantage to having them when you can achieve the same thing without. You can argue that they would let you achieve better positions a turn faster, but again, outside of rare instances, there is almost no benefits for achieving a goal a turn faster as long as you remain within the chapter's turn limits--at least not against the AI.

I am only saying that they are useless to me, and not that they absolutely have no use at all. However, I am saying that the actual benefits that they give is negligible. If you are only using them to move faster, then that is more of a preference than tactical benefit. It is not like in Advance Wars where moving 1 space faster often means you can capture faster, which means you can deploy faster. Here, the enemies often just wait for you to move. If you were actually using them in the middle of an entanglement, then you might have some valid points to justify their use at least, but that brings up the point again about wasting a unit's turn to reposition another unit.

Now do not get me wrong here. Speed is the life blood of battle, so they have a place, but this game just gives no incentives to capitalize on such capabilities, rendering them more or less a novelty to have. If/when this game gets PvP, however, I will retract my argument.

Yeah.... You've not made a single point here. Nice wall.
This is the duty of the Grim Angels.

User Info: Ku-Ri-Boh

Ku-Ri-Boh
1 month ago#17
FelurFalas posted...
ArtiRock posted...
No. Not at all.
I mean, outside of some specific circumstances, instead of letting a unit spend its turn repositioning another unit, why not find a way to make use of that unit such that you do not have to reposition at all?

This is dumber than it sounded in your head

Thankfully there are already users who understand what was wrong with this. This board is smarter than I gave it credit for
I know what your name stands for dude. SexyDragonTidal. You furries... or whatever you guys call yourself... you guys make me sick and have made me afraid to se

User Info: FreeFalco

FreeFalco
1 month ago#18
Ku-Ri-Boh posted...
This is dumber than it sounded in your head
I spat out my drink at this roast

User Info: Urodos

Urodos
1 month ago#19
In early game Maddening, Draw Back came in handy every now and then for me. They definitely have value I'll say that much.
FE Heroes Friend Code: 0995423310, Discord: Urodos

User Info: FelurFalas

FelurFalas
1 month ago#20
Flash2Beasley posted...
Well first of all, I haven't seen you make a single point yet about a third combat art being more valuable than these tools, and I agree that positioning abilities are generally worth more than a third combat art.

Second, I've found plenty of use for these inside dungeons and cramped quarters creating situations where you can effectively block off a squishy from being attacked after using said squishy for damage. Arguing against the value of these is like arguing against the value of canto or mounts in general, movement is always king in tactical rpg's, there's a reason you get almost no method of naturally increasing a units movement.


The question is not what combat art would be better, though. The topic is simply, "are they good on maddening?" They do not have to be good. They just have to be better than the alternatives such that you would actually use them. I am also not saying that they are bad, either. A tool is a tool. You either use it or you do not. However, I am saying they are not as good as people think they are by trying to defeat the arguments that make them good.

Movement is king only because there is competition toward a certain goal, and your enemies will not wait for you. However, this fact is almost completely negated in this game by the fact that most enemies wait for you! Most enemies will not move or appear to attack you until you trigger their conditions to move or appear, either by entering their range, allowing a certain number of turns to elapse, or reaching a certain way-point. The argument that these arts are good because they let you move faster is made moot by the fact that the game literally lets you take your time with no penalty, and in the few occasions where it does rush you, it still gives you plenty of wiggle room. This is the first point.

Because enemies wait for you, this game essentially only moves when you do, which allows you to manipulate enemy movement to your advantage and make them go exactly where you want them to go. Even if you do not use a reposition art to block off your squishy unit, you can still prevent it from being attacked just by placing another squishier unit (or other higher priority attack target) that can also survive an attack in the enemy's attack range, and if you can do that AND attack at the same time, then you would have achieved two goals with one action instead of merely just repositioning to protect a unit. The AI follow a strict set of movement rules, and if you can grasp this, then there is no need for you to reposition your units to adjust to the enemies because they will be adjusting to you! This is the second point.

Only against another player or an AI that constantly moves does superior movement options matter because in the former, you cannot always predict what the other player would do, and in both cases, neither would be waiting for you to set up your formations. At the end of the day, I can admit that repositioning tools are good by sheer virtue that it is a tool, and more tools is always better than less; however, it is still just a novelty in the end because its impact is minimal in most cases once you learn how to make the enemies go where you want.
Yorokobi No Ito Wa Canon Tsumugidasu
The Thread of Happiness is Weaved by a Canon
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  3. C/D Positioning arts (i.e. Repositioning, Draw Back) are useful on Maddening
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