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User Info: Shaded_Phoenix

Shaded_Phoenix
2 months ago#131
SilverBassCross posted...
Shaded_Phoenix posted...
SilverBassCross posted...
For Goody: Still waiting on that kitten argument, don't think Smurf bailed you out.

No one cares about the kitten argument!

If that is literally the only thing you have worth mentioning. Just stop.

Clearly not since you cut out the rest of my post. Goody clearly doesn't know what objectivity means, because he made the claim kittens are "objectively good" which is something a 1st grader would think.

That is literally the only thing you said to Goody. There is nothing else about your argument with Goody that you attempted to get a response on. Goody has stopped arguing. You could use that to claim that Goody has submitted, and then write a final conclusion to affirm your perspective, that Goody is not allowed to misuse language. Instead, your persist with nagging on the tiniest points.

All you're trying to do is demanding again and again and again for some tiny sliver of submission. You are also acting like a 1st grader, bringing your pettiness into play. Your "debate" is making you look poorly.

You may not care about people on the internet, you may think that you can just browbeat people into submission, but this behavior only stymies your maturity. You have failed to convince anyone, they have simply stopped listening to you.

And, yes, that applies to Goody, too, but at least he recognized that no one was respecting his opinion and stopped.

SmurfNextDoor posted...
Anyway, I really am done now, however, as it's taking more time than I can afford at the moment. I didn't really have as much time as I wanted to work on these posts even. Have a good day, guys.

Just to bring this to your attention, Smurf: You and I are the only ones arguing anything here. You can stop. And I can stop. And that will be it, at least for this topic.
Operation Latex Turtle is a go.

User Info: SilverBassCross

SilverBassCross
1 month ago#132
SmurfNextDoor posted...
In a certain way, yes. Viewing human experiences with kittens "objectively", they are overwhelmingly positive, therefore they are "objectively" good. It's obvious to me he means in how they impact people ("making kids happy", as you put it) because he kept trying to get you to view a kitten. And yes, you can say you hate the kitten. But something "objectively" good for a large group as a whole does not need to benefit every single individual.

I doubt he considers kittens morally good since he even said, "it's not moral, it's not subjective."

Senseless murder was probably judged in a similar fashion, it causing an overwhelming amount of suffering. In terms of morality, if we're talking about how something affects our collective human experience and everybody agrees it's terrible by expressing it through their moral systems, people could say it's pretty objectively bad. Not that that's so useful considering the moral system can diverge from the truth of how an action impacts someone. The action could cause a lot of suffering without any real gain and it still wouldn't be "good" in Goody's usage just because people agreed it was.

Okay. I understand the problem.

They're not objectively good/bad as if a God wrote into it into the fabric of the universe, but it's objectively bad in how it impacts our collective human, yes, subjective, experience.

That's the big problem. This is the important part.

It can be an objective fact that things are subjectively good or bad to a majority. That does NOT make them objectively good or bad. If something is subjectively good to you, you can't claim it's objectively good to you, just because it's an objective fact that it is subjectively good to you. Change the "you" with "majority of people", it's still the same. That's the confusion you're having here a lot. Both with the kitten and murder arguments.

I understand, you don't need an opinion, regardless of opinions, you can see, as a fact, that kittens make a lot of people happy. This makes you think you don't need to be opinionated, or moral, or subjective, to say that "kittens are objectively good". It makes you think you're coming from a pretty objective standpoint. But no. You're wording yourself wrong, and it makes your statement wrong. Because you're not simply stating what you have observed. You observed that kittens, for an objective fact, make the majority of people happy. You observed that to the majority, kittens are subjectively good. You have not observed that kittens are objectively good. And you can't. Because they can't BE objectively good. Because that DOES imply it is written into the fabric of existence that kittens are good. Same goes for your observations of murder.

Either way it doesn't matter because arguing whether or not he can call it objective or not doesn't actually change anything about his actual underlying views.

Then he should stop calling them objective.

I think he recognizes that his opinion isn't an objective fact of the universe, he said earlier that "their opinion is trash, in my opinion" and "I'm fairly tolerant of alternative opinions, I just don't pretend mine are facts."

So it's about making constructed, reasoned arguments supporting your opinions.

That is totally fine. I can say a lot of objective things about stories of certain games, as reasons why I don't like those stories. But I don't claim they're objectively better stories for it, which Goody does, and that's what I call him out on.
Mother 4 and MegaMan Battle Network Chrono X, two fangames that deserve more recognition. Please check them out.
www.mother4game.com / www.mmbnchronox.com

User Info: SilverBassCross

SilverBassCross
1 month ago#133
Shaded_Phoenix posted...
Just to bring this to your attention, Smurf: You and I are the only ones arguing anything here. You can stop. And I can stop. And that will be it, at least for this topic.

You're not arguing, and you're contributing to anything. All you did here was to tell me to shut up. If you think what I'm saying is wrong, then maybe actually do argue. If you tell me to "nobody takes you seriously so stop", then I have no reason to take you seriously in return. Not that I did, since you said nothing ow worth, I take Goody more seriously than you, because you know, he actually tries and makes points.
Mother 4 and MegaMan Battle Network Chrono X, two fangames that deserve more recognition. Please check them out.
www.mother4game.com / www.mmbnchronox.com

User Info: SilverBassCross

SilverBassCross
1 month ago#134
SmurfNextDoor posted...
Having those "objective" flaws makes the plot worse than if it didn't, to varying degrees, for almost everybody. Very few people go, "Yeah, that game objectively has way more plotholes, but I like plotholes and they're actually improving the experience!" They might say they can ignore them because it impacts them minimally, which is where Goody gets to people "ignoring flaws" flaws, which is debatable. But if you judge a narrative by it's goal of appealing to its audience, then they objectively harm that value.

Look, it's okay to point out objective facts about a story that caused you to dislike it, I do that too. But when you say they're objectively bad, or that the story is objectively worse for them, or that it would be objectively better without them, then, you're wrong. Clearly, the very few people you mentioned exist. That doesn't have to stop you from complaining about plot holes, and the majority agreeing with you. When you say they objectively make the story worse, then you're just wrong, because no, it's not objective. It's just the opinion of the majority.

It may harm your experience less than his, maybe some other factors will improve your enjoyment enough that it doesn't matter, etc. But that's what Goody meant by criticism being collecting all these good and bad factors to judge the product as a whole. He mentioned objectivity behind his words and making objective arguments, but for how you understand it, it's just well-constructed arguments that point out flaws that are pervasively considered to harm a narrative (or vice versa for positives) in order to back up that end result of how you feel at the end.

So what's the point of saying that if there's still that gap at the end between what the work is and how it impacts you individually? Well, his original point in bringing it up was just basically, "I have reasons for my opinions, stop dismissing everything as purely subjective and actually construct an argument."

That's cool. But reviews and criticism are still opinions. They're not pointless just because they're subjective, if most people agree on certain things like "generic = bad", then pointing out the objective fact that the story is generic has a purpose, others will know what they're getting into, or people may agree with you saying how it made them dislike the game too. But when you do point it out, and people who don't mind or like what you pointed out say that "eh it's subjective", don't go "RRRREEEEEEEE STOP DISMISSING MY OBJECTIVE POINTS I'M TRYING TO HAVE A CONSTRUCTIVE ARGUMENT HERE".
Mother 4 and MegaMan Battle Network Chrono X, two fangames that deserve more recognition. Please check them out.
www.mother4game.com / www.mmbnchronox.com
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