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  3. how about warrior versions of rotk and na?

User Info: vnth93

vnth93
1 month ago#1
for me, warriors games with rotk and na style of writing, characterization, and tactic would really be awesome. in other words, a more grounded, realistic battlefield simulation or a good version of empires. maybe add in a blood dlc and koei would practically be printing money. Id imagine the current series with their aggressive stupidity and silliness hold certain appeals for most core fans, given how well orochi consistently perform. but from a quality perspective, if koei really want to aim for epicness and melodrama, adding in more npcs to kill and forever expanding the roster are not the way to do that. it just make to the game more bloated.

User Info: SiegvonWal

SiegvonWal
1 month ago#2
Well, Dynasty Tactics and Kessen come to mind right away as actual attempts to mix the gameplay types.

But there really hasn't ever been a "hardcore" Warriors game (in the main two series'es at least) nor a "hardcore" game about the time period by Koei. Nioh's the closest, and it goes full Dragon Ball by the end with silliness and revivals.

I can't say I mind though; the story's good (so good it's been retold for literally centuries), and the silliness brings it charm. I guess that's one strength of Japanese game design; they aren't afraid to ease on the Dark Batman Hardcore Edgy Boi and crack a smile or laugh lol.

Only Koei can make Koei games. And ultimately, that's what I'm paying for lol: Koei games.
Ya iz russki bot

User Info: SilverHawke27

SilverHawke27
1 month ago#3
Better writing and characterization couldn't hurt.

But honestly, Dynasty Warriors and ROTK are two sides of the same coin. So are Nobunaga's Ambition and Samurai Warriors.

On the one side you have fast action and strict focus on battlefield action.
On the other side, you have the lords/commanders handling day-to-day affairs and battlefield tactics.

Dynasty Tactics was an attempt to bridge ROTK and DW, but leaned more towards ROTK than the former. The reason we don't have current versions of this series is that it is basically ROTK-lite, with the hardcore strategy buffs preferring the depth of ROTK and the casual gamers preferring the fast action of DW.

Similarly Kessen was more towards Nobunaga's Ambition than Samurai Warriors. But still something of a "lite" version. So it sank into obscurity back in the days of the PS2.

And so we ended up with Empires for both series. Which ultimately is ROTK/NA lite-lite, but while retaining the fast action of the Warriors titles instead. So it was somewhat more popular. The management side of things was not too deep or involved that it would be stale or boring. Similarly the battles were more than just directing a swarm of troops across the battlefield (aka NA/Kessen) or directing a merged army to swat at one another (aka RoTK).
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User Info: vnth93

vnth93
1 month ago#4
well, as i said, it came down to what koei and the fans think they want. if eveyone want good dumb fun then thats exactly what the current series is. but you can't improve the objective quality of the games or make them more appealing to wider audience in this current form. every aspects of the series are pervaded in stupidity. the characters are imbecilic versions of what they were supposed to be. battlefield tactics and strategies are imbecilic versions of what they were supposed to be. you can take something seriously when its idea of "strategy" is hitting people with a feathered fan.

just about everything bad about warriors and can be fixed with their strategy series. just copy the writings and the characterizations. add action combat to 4x management. people who dont like the management part can simply skip it. even in rotk and na you can delegate these obligations. one of the worst things about 9's open world is how divorced it is from the actual game, and that the "world" had absolutely no narrative immersion whatsoever. yet rotk and na had already done openworld right from day one. make the story mode optional can be be unlocked on top of an empires game. players can decide for themselves whether to follow a specific path or to forge their own way.

User Info: HopesPeak

HopesPeak
1 month ago#5
vnth93 posted...
well, as i said, it came down to what koei and the fans think they want.

just about everything bad about warriors and can be fixed with their strategy series. just copy the writings and the characterizations. add action combat to 4x management. people who dont like the management part can simply skip it. even in rotk and na you can delegate these obligations. one of the worst things about 9's open world is how divorced it is from the actual game, and that the "world" had absolutely no narrative immersion whatsoever. yet rotk and na had already done openworld right from day one. make the story mode optional can be be unlocked on top of an empires game. players can decide for themselves whether to follow a specific path or to forge their own way.


I wish Koei had a true 4x game. Uncharted Waters came the closest, but it's more like openworld rpg. What's missing from NA & ROTK is the exploration phase which is what makes 4x games so endlessly replayable. You could go on for centuries isolated from other cultures until one finally discovers you and then you immediately get to join the world congress as a world power depending on your tech & culture level.

I also liked how in games like Civilization, you could be a futuristic military with literal space marines fighting a bunch of spear chucker tribesmen in the same game. I once played a game in Civ5 where I was the Japanese and I did nothing but focus on military. My military was strong all the way up until we got to the 2500s where I'm still bombing people with WW2 era planes, lol.

if eveyone want good dumb fun then thats exactly what the current series is. but you can't improve the objective quality of the games or make them more appealing to wider audience in this current form. every aspects of the series are pervaded in stupidity. the characters are imbecilic versions of what they were supposed to be. battlefield tactics and strategies are imbecilic versions of what they were supposed to be. you can take something seriously when its idea of "strategy" is hitting people with a feathered fan.

I'm with you there, it's why I'm not as hardcore of a Koei fan as I used to be. They haven't been the same ever since they switched their focus to Musou games back in the PS3 era. It's why I just moved on to PC games like Mount & Blade which is also on PS4. It's practically everything that you're asking for except the combat is more of a one hit, one kill type of deal, it's nothing like Dynasty Warriors combat. Heavier armor prevents one-hit fatalities but you're also slower.

I also play me a lot of Total War, Age of Wonders 3, Xenonauts & all this other crap that Koei used to make before they switched their focus to musou & mobile games. I'm sick & tired of how every modern Koei strategy game feels incomplete without the Power up Kit or expansions. Back in the day, the PUK made the game more complete but the original version still felt like a finished product.
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User Info: HopesPeak

HopesPeak
1 month ago#6
SilverHawke27 posted...
Better writing and characterization couldn't hurt.

But honestly, Dynasty Warriors and ROTK are two sides of the same coin. So are Nobunaga's Ambition and Samurai Warriors.

On the one side you have fast action and strict focus on battlefield action.
On the other side, you have the lords/commanders handling day-to-day affairs and battlefield tactics.

Dynasty Tactics was an attempt to bridge ROTK and DW, but leaned more towards ROTK than the former. The reason we don't have current versions of this series is that it is basically ROTK-lite, with the hardcore strategy buffs preferring the depth of ROTK and the casual gamers preferring the fast action of DW.

Similarly Kessen was more towards Nobunaga's Ambition than Samurai Warriors. But still something of a "lite" version. So it sank into obscurity back in the days of the PS2.


The only thing Kessen needed is the freeform openworld nature of ROTK & NA and I'd switch over to Kessen in a heartbeat. All 3 Kessen games are good, but they're made like typical Jrpg style strategy games where all you have is a linear campaign with tons & tons of cutscenes & endless forced drama & talking so you have nothing left to do after you beat the story.

NA/ROTK style of games have an appeal to them that's similar to wrestling games, in the sense that you're given a game ruleset tool to work with and you're free to customize the hell out of it. NA Ascension even came with scenario editors along with its usual officer editor & character create. Kessen has none of that, which has them stuck in a "play once, never play again." limbo since there's no reason to replay the entire game since you'll most likely only want to replay the epic battles and skip the rest of the crap.

Another issue that Kessen had is that they're fairly similar to Kingdom Under Fire but KUF just blows the series out of the water. The only thing Kessen did better was story presentation but that's also why they're not as good.
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User Info: ComingEvil

ComingEvil
1 month ago#7
I too have long wanted a hybrid GS with battle simulation (ie a mix of ROTK and DW), like someone pointed out earlier DW Tactics came closest (That game RULED!!). But for the new generation consoles, the open world format is the first step towards that.

They already implemented a few things from other series in DW9, like the bases and supply-lines from Empires, (though they regrettably don’t have a big effect to the mission), which can suggest there is a possibility of that’s what they are doing.

The next steps could be something like making requirements or incentives (ie EP, scrolls, or coins), for taking bases on a mission. They could also add soldier totals to determine stat boosts or penalties, keeping counts of supplies for them (so you could take supply bases to gain supplies for and take there’s away), and other ROTK basics. Much of which is already in the current format, and the rest could be reasonably added.

But I think they’re on the right track to get a hybrid done!

Though personally, I’d prefer ROTK with non-Warrior style battles. Just period-based weapons, no effects, no Musho, just stabbing and slicing anyone in your way, and (though I know it won’t happen) blood, lots of blood. Oh and corpses staying where lie, (again almost no chance but damn that’d be awesome)

User Info: SiegvonWal

SiegvonWal
1 month ago#8
HopesPeak posted...

The only thing Kessen needed is the freeform openworld nature of ROTK & NA and I'd switch over to Kessen in a heartbeat. All 3 Kessen games are good, but they're made like typical Jrpg style strategy games where all you have is a linear campaign with tons & tons of cutscenes & endless forced drama & talking so you have nothing left to do after you beat the story.


Funny thing about Kessen, Kessen III was one of my favorite games as a kid. Played it a million times, and the things I loved about that game were its combat/tactics, collecting hidden officers, rare weapons/armor, and of course the story and characters since this was back when the story of Nobunaga was new to me and Kessen III was the most comprehensive about telling Nobunaga's story of all the Koei games I had at the time (this was before I owned/played Nobunaga's Ambition and perhaps right around the time I first played Romance of the Three Kingdoms).

What'd I'd give to see a Kessen IV...

I wish Koei had a true 4x game. Uncharted Waters came the closest, but it's more like openworld rpg. What's missing from NA & ROTK is the exploration phase which is what makes 4x games so endlessly replayable. You could go on for centuries isolated from other cultures until one finally discovers you and then you immediately get to join the world congress as a world power depending on your tech & culture level.
Obvious problems with trying to put exploration into RotTK and N.A. though; it wouldn't make sense, as the important people knew what their country looked like.

I'm not sure how the exploration part of 4X could be added into these games considering they take place in real countries and with real people/etc without essentially being a copy-cat of Civilization (which I wouldn't necessarily mind since only one Civ game ever came to consoles).

I also liked how in games like Civilization, you could be a futuristic military with literal space marines fighting a bunch of spear chucker tribesmen in the same game. I once played a game in Civ5 where I was the Japanese and I did nothing but focus on military. My military was strong all the way up until we got to the 2500s where I'm still bombing people with WW2 era planes, lol.
Reminds me of a playthrough in Civilization Revolution where my isolated Germany got some black ships sent by Gandhi lol. I was in the late medieval/early-industrial era and totally isolated from the rest of the world, but my island archipelago got a taste of modern technology lol.

Unfortunately the game ended with a "culture victory". That's why I like the modes that only allow for martial world conquests since the others rush things too much and take away from the fun of slowly conquering the world. Although I don't remember there being many wars without modern technology since it generally paid to focus on building up the military tech and avoid direct wars until it was modern artillery bombing the crap out of phalanxes of pikemen and catapults lol.
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