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  3. Dynasty Warriors 9 is surprisingly faithful to the original novel...

User Info: ComingEvil

ComingEvil
3 months ago#11
pSiegvonWal posted...
Rude Hero posted...
I would like to read the novel but I imagine there are many variations now. Which one do you think would be most relatable for someone whose ROTK knowledge comes from the DW series?

Definitely the version I linked on YouTube, as the storyteller has both a first-language level of understanding of both Chinese and English and tells the story in a way that's more "fun" and "comprehensible" than "academic" or "too literal". I suggest you check it out as it's hard to describe.

Not to mention, listening/reading RotK is basically like reading/listening to Dynasty Warriors since the big characters are regularly described as doing inhumanly badass things (like Dian Wei spinning twin halberds to deflect enemy arrows lol). There's a LOT of events that occur in the book that don't in the games, so I think you'll be more surprised than hearing pretty much everything you know already on a loop.

great find! i’d all but given out finding an audio version on iTunes or audible

User Info: ComingEvil

ComingEvil
3 months ago#12
I strongly recommend reading BOTH the MR and WG versions. DW uses the WG names so it may be easier(ie WG: Liu Bei - MR: Lui Pei, WG: Cao Cao, MR T’sao T’sao)

The most common WG comes in 4 normal size brown paperbacks, includes histoic artwork, and notions

The common MR version is two big paper backs and includes more notations and commentary. MR is a tricky read at first due to the translations, but the footnotes etc explain and expand the story as well as denote history from fiction.

The notes and commentaries are essential so research and examine the versions before you get them

User Info: Dark Symphony

Dark Symphony
3 months ago#13
I disagree. Every Dw game outside of 1 tells the story better. 9 ticks a bunch of boxes and mentions a bunch of crap but it comes off more as a bunch of insider nods and fandering to a certain breed of die hards rather than an accurate depiction of events.

Standing in the middle of a courtyard in the rain while taking turns rattling off nods to key events is not a very representative depiction in my opinion. Legendary, decorated generals earning the right to go to war by doing side missions and taking orders from peasants and nobodies isn't very representative. Having a bunch of menial skirmishes with no gravitas splattered across a map isn't very representative.

The older games not only slotted and represented the characters better, they depicted the nature of events better specifically because they didn't focus on trying to get in as many insider references as possible with no regard to character role or pacing. Xu Sheng shouldn't be seeing through Zhou Yu plots. Peasants shouldn't be predicting the overthrow of the Cao by the Sima decades before it happens.

There's more to depicting a story than just check boxing a bunch of events and having characters rattle off lines and references. Zhao Yun running around gathering materials for two hours before grappling hooking into a stronghold to grab a baby between sidequests just doesn't come off as a depiction that matches the level of the older games. Context and gravitas matter

User Info: ComingEvil

ComingEvil
3 months ago#14
Dark Symphony posted...
I disagree. Every Dw game outside of 1 tells the story better. 9 ticks a bunch of boxes and mentions a bunch of crap but it comes off more as a bunch of insider nods and fandering to a certain breed of die hards rather than an accurate depiction of events.

Standing in the middle of a courtyard in the rain while taking turns rattling off nods to key events is not a very representative depiction in my opinion. Legendary, decorated generals earning the right to go to war by doing side missions and taking orders from peasants and nobodies isn't very representative. Having a bunch of menial skirmishes with no gravitas splattered across a map isn't very representative.

The older games not only slotted and represented the characters better, they depicted the nature of events better specifically because they didn't focus on trying to get in as many insider references as possible with no regard to character role or pacing. Xu Sheng shouldn't be seeing through Zhou Yu plots. Peasants shouldn't be predicting the overthrow of the Cao by the Sima decades before it happens.

There's more to depicting a story than just check boxing a bunch of events and having characters rattle off lines and references. Zhao Yun running around gathering materials for two hours before grappling hooking into a stronghold to grab a baby between sidequests just doesn't come off as a depiction that matches the level of the older games. Context and gravitas matter

The certain breed of die hards actually know the story and history which is why we like it.

Perhaps you should stick with imaginary aliens and pirates anc leave DW to the grown ups.

But please buy 3 more copies of DW9 to help spike our numbers

User Info: SiegvonWal

SiegvonWal
3 months ago#15
Dark Symphony posted...
I disagree. Every Dw game outside of 1 tells the story better.

To be absolutely clear, I said "is the most faithful" NOT "tells the story best". I'd argue that honor goes to 7 since it pioneered trying to tell a wide-covering story of the Three Kingdoms from start to finish, even if it meant cutting some things out or making some things up.

I'd argue Koei's best storytelling days were in the PS2 Era though, like with DW4, Kessen, Dynasty Tactics (only got into recently--I always wanted it as a kid though lol), and OG Samurai Warriors. They may not have been the most complete or historically accurate, but they were--to me at least--the most enjoyable and creative tellings of the historical eras.

The older games not only slotted and represented the characters better, they depicted the nature of events better specifically because they didn't focus on trying to get in as many insider references as possible with no regard to character role or pacing. Xu Sheng shouldn't be seeing through Zhou Yu plots. Peasants shouldn't be predicting the overthrow of the Cao by the Sima decades before it happens.
According to the books, children were singing songs predicting Dong Zhuo's demise so why not also the fall of Cao? I haven't gotten far enough to know if there was such a scene, but I wouldn't be surprised given the trend.
There's more to depicting a story than just check boxing a bunch of events and having characters rattle off lines and references. Zhao Yun running around gathering materials for two hours before grappling hooking into a stronghold to grab a baby between sidequests just doesn't come off as a depiction that matches the level of the older games. Context and gravitas matter


I like the new take though, and I enjoy the slower pace and greater freedom. I know it's less well directed and choreographed, less exciting, as well as less emotional (except in cutscenes or better skits), but I don't mind that so much because I like the open world, the freedom, and the greater coverage of events as well as plenty side battles.

However I think there's definitely room for improvement, especially with the contrast between player actions (defeating Zhou Yu and company at Chi Bi) versus what the game says happened (yet Cao Cao still loses). Not to mention, as many others have, the lack of use for the general countryside south of Cheng Du and Chang Sha, Xi Liang, and Liao Dong (typically my favorite corner in Koei games too :-( --though I suspect Jin will be fighting Gongsun Du here), as well as the ease in which one can get the ultimate weapons if one has the patience to fish for treasures (and look up where to find them on the Internet).

I don't know if these are necessary growing pains, but I do understand that a baby's first open world isn't going to be the best and figure the next outing will be far better. Whether that's SW5, DW10, or a side series/at all.
Ya iz russki bot

User Info: Dark Symphony

Dark Symphony
3 months ago#16
ComingEvil posted...
Dark Symphony posted...
I disagree. Every Dw game outside of 1 tells the story better. 9 ticks a bunch of boxes and mentions a bunch of crap but it comes off more as a bunch of insider nods and fandering to a certain breed of die hards rather than an accurate depiction of events.

Standing in the middle of a courtyard in the rain while taking turns rattling off nods to key events is not a very representative depiction in my opinion. Legendary, decorated generals earning the right to go to war by doing side missions and taking orders from peasants and nobodies isn't very representative. Having a bunch of menial skirmishes with no gravitas splattered across a map isn't very representative.

The older games not only slotted and represented the characters better, they depicted the nature of events better specifically because they didn't focus on trying to get in as many insider references as possible with no regard to character role or pacing. Xu Sheng shouldn't be seeing through Zhou Yu plots. Peasants shouldn't be predicting the overthrow of the Cao by the Sima decades before it happens.

There's more to depicting a story than just check boxing a bunch of events and having characters rattle off lines and references. Zhao Yun running around gathering materials for two hours before grappling hooking into a stronghold to grab a baby between sidequests just doesn't come off as a depiction that matches the level of the older games. Context and gravitas matter

The certain breed of die hards actually know the story and history which is why we like it.

Perhaps you should stick with imaginary aliens and pirates anc leave DW to the grown ups.

But please buy 3 more copies of DW9 to help spike our numbers


How can you know the story when you clearly can't read?

Being fan of the story =/= being a fanboy for a game. Real fans (read: not reflexive fanboys) would understand the significance of the issues I pointed out. This shouldn't be an us vs them issue. Get some glasses or go to school or whatever you need to do. Once you learn to read you may find the story to be completely different than you think. If you can't even read my comparatively small post there's no way you've read the story. You must have listened to a fanfic somewhere or something.

User Info: Dark Symphony

Dark Symphony
3 months ago#17
SiegvonWal posted...
To be absolutely clear, I said "is the most faithful" NOT "tells the story best".


Sounds like we just have different interpretations of the term "faithful." I know, now, what you mean. Basically you're saying it includes the most events and references, which I agree with.

To me, the older games were more like movies or TV series' depicting the book's events and DW9 is like a Wikipedia rundown. It talks about a bunch of things but it's contextually flippant and lacks any impact due to being spread so thin.

DW9 is also just plain poorly directed in a lot of areas. I suspect it has a lot to do with the team behine it being spread super thin. When you are at your limits you tend to do things like reduce characters down to one single obnoxious gimmick and have people take turns saying lines to get every character a speaking part rather than have conversations happen organically.

I think DW9 would have been better served with much less talking and fewer but bigger missions. A mission-in-mission structure also could help work some side missions into the game. Like you start the Tao Qian mission and then someone requests someone make the trek to recruit Kong Rong and you take off from there.

User Info: SiegvonWal

SiegvonWal
3 months ago#18
Dark Symphony posted...
SiegvonWal posted...
To be absolutely clear, I said "is the most faithful" NOT "tells the story best".


Sounds like we just have different interpretations of the term "faithful." I know, now, what you mean. Basically you're saying it includes the most events and references, which I agree with.
Yes, basically.

To me, the older games were more like movies or TV series' depicting the book's events and DW9 is like a Wikipedia rundown. It talks about a bunch of things but it's contextually flippant and lacks any impact due to being spread so thin.
I agree, more or less. But, to use a TV show analogy, I've seen this show so many times in so many remakes that I find the dryly written Wikipedia article more interesting because it introduced me to things I had no idea happened because the remakes kept focusing on only the major events.

The story of DW9, with only some exceptions, is generally told in a bland and slow way. I'm okay with that because in exchange I get a lot more context and trivia than I was getting in previous games, but I'd be reaching if I said the trade-off is worthwhile overall. I'm just okay with it, definitely not thrilled like I was when I played DW7 and saw the whole story play out for the first time in the series.

DW9 is also just plain poorly directed in a lot of areas. I suspect it has a lot to do with the team behine it being spread super thin. When you are at your limits you tend to do things like reduce characters down to one single obnoxious gimmick and have people take turns saying lines to get every character a speaking part rather than have conversations happen organically.
And when you try to give depth to many parts, you get a really big book so to speak. Therefore, in order to ensure you get Big + Deep, the creators would have to either spend a lot more time and money making it (which may be cost-prohibitive) OR narrow the focus.

As-is, in making 10, it may not be an either/or if they're willing to reuse enough assets from 9 that they dedicate resources not-being-spent-on-creating-new-assets on refining the stories and mission structures to be more impactful and weighty (as otherwise you, the player, essentially have to just imagine the weight for yourself--not something everyone can, or is willing, to do equally).

Overall they probably should just focus on the big events and portray them as well as possible so that it's engaging and enjoyable, especially for newcomers, rather than cover a wide area but make it thin.

However I am ambivalent because I don't mind it as-is, because I get a whole lot of stuff that wasn't there in previous games, but I'm far from thrilled because the gravity isn't really there and the slow pace combined with the thin story makes it... Well, not satisfying.

I think DW9 would have been better served with much less talking and fewer but bigger missions. A mission-in-mission structure also could help work some side missions into the game. Like you start the Tao Qian mission and then someone requests someone make the trek to recruit Kong Rong and you take off from there.
Yeah, I think maybe.

I'd like to "have it all"--slow pace, cover a lot of ground, make it all deep and engaging rather than a series of silent nods to NPCs--but I don't know if Koei is capable of it. They may be in the next game since there's a lot of assets to reuse (including quests) but I'm skeptical that they'll be able to both width (coverage of the story, including minor parts) and depth (actual conversations and character development besides the handful or major characters) due to how that's way more difficult than simply covering a lot or making it deep while covering a little.
Ya iz russki bot

User Info: Skode24

Skode24
3 months ago#19
DW9 feels like a TV Adaption and DW8 a movie. Ones for thousands of lines of dialogue and a deliberate slow pacing to cover dozens of minor events and the other is just picking the flashier moments and focusing on the action sequences.

Still DW7 and to a degree 8 did a decent job of the story despite the massive hindrances to properly covering the wealth and volume of the source material but nowhere near as good as 9. Nobody who has read the books should be able to argue otherwise and to be fair it wasn't an incredibly action heavy novel as so much of it is spend on thoughts, schemes and dialogue not combat (which when it was the case was obviously mostly one hit finishes and many died of illness or natural causes).

Sure some characters have overtly gimmicky traits but that's a design choice to differentiate a big cast which grows by the year (the book has hundreds upon hundreds of named characters). This isn't a stretched Dev team fault, it's a design choice - how long has it been since Xu Chu became an obese simpleton not an notoriously aggressive vanguard leader? Wei Yan became an illiterate barbarian or Zhang He a prancing eccentric homosexual? Certainly not recently. The likes of those 3 were some of the most celebrated officers of the era no less not throwaways adds like Zuo Ci or Xu Shu.

Even still it's not like it detracts from them... Zhou Tai is hugely popular but why? Not for his feats but because he's inexplicably a mute Chinese Samurai and fans like that. Xu Shu is popular because he's literally an Assassins Creed rip off and Wang Yuanji has finished top female in majority of Japanese opinion polls because she panders to the huge appeal tropes in being the foreign looking busty tsundere.

There's nothing wrong with the DW9 story telling, it's format best suits the source though of course it can be done better - better animated for a start but it suits the large cast Vs just over egging big names as the rest don't feature as we saw with the likes of Xu Huang, Taishi Ci and Guan Ping. As new characters gimmick or not barely registered (seriously how forgettable have the likes of Can Wenji, Li Dian and Guan Xing been until now?) And ones which did hit were not from merit but their characterization especiallt in females like fruitloop Wang Yi, School girl Guan Yinping and worst offender Lu Lingqi who is only liked because if association as she's the daughter of the western fanbases defacto most popular character.

DW10 can retain the format and develop the cast properly - no need for super strength teenager girls, no need for adding characters related to others just because they were not gonna get screentime and had to be noticed for something and no need for most wanted polls being dominated by weird choices because they didn't know the source just the highlighted NPCs from previous games (Xu Shu, Zhu Ran etc).

DW9 didn't need any of that - Cheng Pu doesn't have some odious trope just to be noticed, he is a good character from just being developed enough from this story format. As is Xu Sheng and Man Chong and Cao Xui and Xun You etc. The newer cast were mostly deeper cuts than the ones we've had from older games in series but they're far better done - were stuck with how the older ones are presented because of the old format. It's bewildering people want to go back to minimal coverage of maybe a dozen battles but flashier presentation... What next? Ooooh Liao Hua standing out only because he's 19 foot tall as otherwise he's forgettable as a character but they needed something to make him unique for his single selectable stage lol.

User Info: HopesPeak

HopesPeak
3 months ago#20
Yeah a lot of us ROTK purists were saying that when the game first came out. It's what kept me interested in the game until I got to the final chapters, and it just ends abrubtly way before the Jin ever officially become a country.
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