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  1. Boards
  2. Dynasty Warriors 9
  3. Character stories are a major letdown

User Info: SiegvonWal

SiegvonWal
3 months ago#11
EDIT to above:

Actually, I'd argue individual stories is better for storytelling because it's easier to relate and project into an individual than it is an entire clan or country. I had more fun learning the Three Kingdoms story by playing many different characters in DW3 than I did playing the whole kingdom in DW7. I think DW9 is a good compromise because you're playing an individual who is, unless they're important to the present moment, a spectator and small cog in a big machine--a perspective I'd argue is easier to relate to and enjoy the view of than an impersonal narrator's.
Ya iz russki bot

User Info: GeneralZhao

GeneralZhao
3 months ago#12
Did DW9 really accomplish the "small cog in a big machine" perspective though? I agree it might be easier to relate to (enjoyment is subjective) but there's so many instances where your character has an event where they're just standing in the background with no dialogue.

Honestly, I'd argue that DW5-DW7 did a better job of the small cog in a big machine perspective which is more to say of how poor DW9's story was
https://imgur.com/a/f52rH

User Info: Skode24

Skode24
3 months ago#13
In essence they need to retain the kingdom mode story telling from 9 but lose the daft everyone is there in every battle their alive gimmick. Nobody liked that, people moaned they're just standing around watching and that there's no unique battle dialogue there for them (as they were not there after all).

It's regressive to retain this format with the mindset "just rush the boss" or "lower difficulty" as that was literally the biggest gripe most veterans had with things like the Grapple Hook removing most of the point of actually playing the game as intended. It's needs tweaked because there's no reason to HAVE to rush objectives when you can just not force battles on to characters when it's under the pretence of "individual" stories.

I guess going forward there's the DLC approach for DW10 which offered variety to chose from...

Yuan Shu - basically same as the rest of the DW9 approach. It was his story but as he's only officer in game playable from his clan its unique. Great story but issue is if say Season Pass 3 added Ji Ling it'd be like Chen Gong and Lu Lingqi... Piggy backing the same plot as his lord. Not very "individual" a tale.

Dong Bai - complete opposite. A very individual what if kind of story and this allowed a very fresh approach to story telling for a character but it's so far from source material I only want this on minor characters. Prob my least fave of the 4.

Hua Xiong - bit of following the story and a good bit of non canon. Had a lot of fun with this story. There's no far out ending of what if he conquers China, it ends when it's meant to but fleshed out the minor cast he mingled with a lot. Id be ok with this in DW10 but the work to do it on potential 100 plus cast is unrealistic.

Xiahou Ji - the compramise and prob better approach going forward. I like many want kingdoms to be focus and others want individuals... She followed the Shu story to a letter in its same overarching narrative and battles but she's got exclusive dialogue conversations, exclusive battle interactions and even exclusive to her battle objectives. A perfect approach to use going forward.

As such in DW10 I want same narrative approach to DW9 but keep characters playable to only battles theyre in (like DW8... Before every battle you only select from who's there not play same dude every single in a slog) and give every option a unique twist in the battle. Doesn't have to be massive but a unique objective or two and a few lines of dialogue to encourage you to use everyone... Why does Zhuge Liang get to save Lui Shan as a baby? It should be exclusive to Zhao Yun! Surely this is better than just kill the boss if you don't like being in battles you've no right to be no?

Shorter focused stories are what id consider individual stories which can work without compramising the over arching more appealing kingdom plot. It'd remove complaints of what's the point of so many playerables and in all honesty would prob sell this F2P model better as each character has exclusive stuff which they barely have in its current format (even if like Lianshi or YueYing your in a good half a dozen chapter or more, every battle... Doing nothing of note you haven't seen before).

A big complaint is they don't use open world enough... Correct! I agree with them, unique objectives per character gives excuse to go different routes instead of just rush the boss because there is no replay value for veterans.

If they're not gonna do that kingdom all the way. Pick you character like before with each battle from battle to battle to chapter end. No point in pretending it's individual stories otherwise and i certainly don't want 100 stories of make believe fan fiction at the expense of the RotK story lol. That's just my opinion anyway. I'm over 750 hours in, I like the game but its full of things that can be fixed to make it a much better experience.

User Info: sol_trigger

sol_trigger
3 months ago#14
oh here we go another hate thread lmao

User Info: SiegvonWal

SiegvonWal
3 months ago#15
GeneralZhao posted...
Did DW9 really accomplish the "small cog in a big machine" perspective though? I agree it might be easier to relate to (enjoyment is subjective) but there's so many instances where your character has an event where they're just standing in the background with no dialogue.

True, and I agree DW9 handled the not-important characters poorly but it didn't bother me because I wasn't interested in being the center of events and more or less just wanted to play as whomever and do my own thing. Lianshi, for example, was perfectly handled as far as I'm concerned because her story is primarily as a love and support for Sun Quan. Beyond that, I want to head out and knock out peons and go Super Saiyan against enemy officers.

Honestly, I'd argue that DW5-DW7 did a better job of the small cog in a big machine perspective which is more to say of how poor DW9's story was
I'd say DW5 surely, and DW6 from memory, but not so much 7 because you mainly followed the leaders and their chiefs rather than the majority of follower-characters.

I'd much rather be able to play as a character with little involvement in the story than not be able to play as that character at all. Between "little story, but much playtime" and "no story, no playtime" I definitely prefer the former. Of course I'd rather they made it more intimate like in 5 (which admittedly I didn't play too much of so I can't say how well they did beyond Sima Yi and a couple others) but they sorta already did it like that as most characters have a monologue before being allowed to head out and do things.
Ya iz russki bot

User Info: SiegvonWal

SiegvonWal
3 months ago#16
Skode24 posted...
In essence they need to retain the kingdom mode story telling from 9 but lose the daft everyone is there in every battle their alive gimmick. Nobody liked that, people moaned they're just standing around watching and that there's no unique battle dialogue there for them (as they were not there after all).
Hey man, "Nobody" right here liked that. It was cool being able to play as minor characters I've been a big fan of (like Lianshi as a big example) rather than only be able to play them in half a battle after a hundred hours as other characters.

And I think it's safe to assume most people have that one or two characters who aren't important enough to warrant much attention but are fun or likable enough that they/we still want to put the time and thought into playing them a lot.

I'm totally cool playing as a spectator, given I the player am a spectator regardless of who I'm playing as since there's no story-changing decisions to be made.
It's regressive to retain this format with the mindset "just rush the boss" or "lower difficulty" as that was literally the biggest gripe most veterans had with things like the Grapple Hook removing most of the point of actually playing the game as intended. It's needs tweaked because there's no reason to HAVE to rush objectives when you can just not force battles on to characters when it's under the pretence of "individual" stories.


You can do whatever you want. You have OPTIONS, and that's what I'm happy about. I can choose to ignore the grappling hook or exploit the stealth-archery thing to my hearts content. From what I can tell, unless I'm over-armed, or on Normal or below, (and yes I would rather it not be possible to become OP and instead be made to put all my best gear on to cope with the hardest difficulty), I can't just rush the boss when they're supported by peons who can shaft me to death while I'm distracted by the boss and/or other officers who can do far worse in a group.

Yuan Shu -
As far as I'm concerned, if I can play as one character for dozens or even hundreds of hours (if I chose to replay it or be a completionist or something) then it's an individual story. I don't care if 95% of the story is shared with other characters. I don't need or want it to be all about my character. I'm totally cool with sharing the spotlight or even not being in the light at all.

Of course, I'd rather see some cutscenes (to use Lianshi as an example) like Lianshi cheering Sun Quan on or helping him or advising him or other such stuff that'd be unique to minor characters like her, but I'm also cool with those not being there because I know Koei has to prioritize and this sort of thing is probably not worth the money compared to showing off the historical badasses.

Xiahou Ji -
I agree Xiahou Ji is the best handled of the minor characters. However, I think we're expecting too much if we think Koei has what it takes to give that kind of special attention to all the minor characters and I'd rather not have this attention at all if it means being restricted to just one or two chapters, i.e. just a few hours of gameplay. Xiahou Ji's similar enough to her daughter gameplay-wise and story-wise that I don't mind her short story, but I'd definitely mind if most characters who aren't important only had short stories based around their times of greatest glory since it'd be little different than what happened in DW7-8 --and I really want to be able to play as my favorite side characters without having to play as main characters I've gotten bored with for a hundred or so hours first.

This is gonna be a two-parter lol. I had to cut up some of your quotes to make room, I apologize for that.
Ya iz russki bot

User Info: SiegvonWal

SiegvonWal
3 months ago#17
Skode24 posted...
As such in DW10 I want same narrative approach to DW9 but keep characters playable to only battles theyre in (like DW8... Before every battle you only select from who's there not play same dude every single in a slog) and give every option a unique twist in the battle. Doesn't have to be massive but a unique objective or two and a few lines of dialogue to encourage you to use everyone... Why does Zhuge Liang get to save Lui Shan as a baby? It should be exclusive to Zhao Yun! Surely this is better than just kill the boss if you don't like being in battles you've no right to be no?
While I agree it ought to be Zhao-Yun-only to rescue the baby Liu Shan, I don't like the idea of being forced to character hop. I don't mind character-hopping if it's optional, just when it means I can't stick with my main and have fun from there.
I'd say DW4 did the compromise pretty well for its time, as I could play as anybody I wanted but followed mostly the same story every time. I'd argue 9 did it better though since you couldn't really switch characters mid-kingdom-story since they'd be level 1 in an environment a little to dangerous for their fresh faced stats.
Otherwise I prefer either the traditional way of DW2-3 or the current hybrid of DW9.

Shorter focused stories are what id consider individual stories which can work without compramising the over arching more appealing kingdom plot. It'd remove complaints of what's the point of so many playerables and in all honesty would prob sell this F2P model better as each character has exclusive stuff which they barely have in its current format (even if like Lianshi or YueYing your in a good half a dozen chapter or more, every battle... Doing nothing of note you haven't seen before).


Now, DW suddenly going F2P is a whole other argument but my basic answer to that "By God, NO!!!" since that'd most likely result in selling pieces of the game at way above the standard price rather than actually adding more.

I wouldn't do it even if it added more unique stuff to my Yueying or Lianshi, as I don't like that practice and would rather have an inferior but complete product over parts of a maybe-superior product.

As I've said repeatedly, I much prefer to just play as whoever I want for as long as I'm able/interested without regard as to how important that character actually is.

It'd be ideal if Koei could make everybody have an interesting individual story without essentially making them all the same/re-tredding-familar-ground but I don't think they're capable of it and am totally fine with most characters sharing most cutscenes/skits so long as I get to play as whoever I want for the duration that they're available (which I'd like to be the equivalent of several chapters worth, to use DW9 as a standard).
A big complaint is they don't use open world enough... Correct! I agree with them, unique objectives per character gives excuse to go different routes instead of just rush the boss because there is no replay value for veterans.
As-is, you could always take a different route to the boss and support different allies--especially if you don't 100% every chapter when you get them. Of course I'd like to open up the map... but I think playable Others would do that better.
If they're not gonna do that kingdom all the way. Pick you character like before with each battle from battle to battle to chapter end. No point in pretending it's individual stories otherwise and i certainly don't want 100 stories of make believe fan fiction at the expense of the RotK story lol. That's just my opinion anyway. I'm over 750 hours in, I like the game but its full of things that can be fixed to make it a much better experience.
I'm cool with your idea so long as I can play as minor characters during the main story and not just the important ones.
Ya iz russki bot

User Info: Xiahou Mao

Xiahou Mao
3 months ago#18
SiegvonWal posted...
And then later when he's commenting on all the Wei playables was hilarious! And then eventually having to fight them all at Guan Du was an awesome climatic showdown! I was half-expecting them to cut Guan Du, which would have been disappointing as Hell, since it appears to be a trend to cut officers out of the battles they die in, but I really enjoyed Yuan Shao's Guan Du


If it helps, he didn't die at that battle. It'd be like cutting Liu Bei out of Yiling (which I'm not sure if this game does yet, but I assume not).
Xiahou Mao, True Hero of the Three Kingdoms!

User Info: SiegvonWal

SiegvonWal
3 months ago#19
Xiahou Mao posted...
SiegvonWal posted...
And then later when he's commenting on all the Wei playables was hilarious! And then eventually having to fight them all at Guan Du was an awesome climatic showdown! I was half-expecting them to cut Guan Du, which would have been disappointing as Hell, since it appears to be a trend to cut officers out of the battles they die in, but I really enjoyed Yuan Shao's Guan Du


If it helps, he didn't die at that battle. It'd be like cutting Liu Bei out of Yiling (which I'm not sure if this game does yet, but I assume not).


You're right I forgot lol. Technically the "can't play the death battle" rule is upheld but Yuan Shao's ending, to the best of my memory, was a hypothetical victory and I enjoyed that quite a bit since--pretty much since I was a small kid playing Yuan Shao for the first time in DW3XL--I always enjoyed saving Yan Liang and Wen Chou before changing history some more.

If you don't mind a spoiler: Liu Bei actually survives the Battle of Yiling in his own story and then his ending involves him peacefully retiring, watching the young children of himself and his brothers and seeing his own generation's youthful eagerness in them, and rather tastefully ending on an optimistic note as the "kids" are all playing or teasing each other while the "old guard", which is mainly Liu Bei in a private garden, retires from the fight

Overall I'd say Liu Bei's story was handled very well--especially his ending. I highly recommend playing him if you haven't already.
Ya iz russki bot

User Info: Xiahou Mao

Xiahou Mao
3 months ago#20
Liu Bei should survive that battle in his own story, since he did in the novel as well. He didn't die until two years later. Just like Yuan Shao!
Xiahou Mao, True Hero of the Three Kingdoms!
  1. Boards
  2. Dynasty Warriors 9
  3. Character stories are a major letdown
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