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  3. Whether Joel knew or not - 0% chance Fireflies could make a cure

User Info: Endofall

Endofall
3 days ago#31
FenrirsBlade posted...
That isn't necessarily at retcon at all. The finding of a cure simply might or might not have worked. There was a chance for both. And even if left ambigious one or the other simply HAD to be true.
True. It’s more “really unrealistic”. Not that I personally care about realism in these games.
"I don't like thing because fanbase annoys me, so I will deprive myself of experience to piss them off. That'll show 'em."
(edited 3 days ago)

User Info: CalmJester

CalmJester
3 days ago#32
TheOtherMike posted...
It's not possible to vaccinate for fungal infections. At all. If we're raising doubts about the Fireflies' ability to make a vaccine based on realistic considerations like the availability of equipment and time developing the drug, the above fact has to be considered as well. Obviously the game wants us to believe it can be done. But for as much as I love TLoU the entire sequence in the hospital makes no sense whatsoever.

There's a document or recording that says they were able to cultivate Ellie's cordyceps in a growth medium. If that's true there's literally no reason to cut her open. Just collect more samples and grow more cultures. Killing the host would be insanely stupid and shortsighted.

It also doesn't make sense that Ellie never regained consciousness while at the hospital. Taking samples and running labs on them takes literal days. Why would Marlene have her kept sedated during this time? Ellie was a family friend. Even if there was no personal connection, they wouldn't waste valuable drugs keeping her sedated. They wouldn't immediately decide to kill and dissect Ellie before running every other conceivable test they could, many of which would require her to be conscious. She'd need a full and extensive physical to ensure there are no negative effects of her unique infection.

The ending is pure emotional manipulation at the expense of believability. The most cursory examination of the Fireflies and medical staff reveals them to be literal fanatics and mad scientists. I still very much enjoyed it, but it could have definitely been written better.

^This.

Frankly, having the fireflies be desperate and hasty, over-eager and on the brink of squandering their chance due to poor choices is right up this game’s thematic alley. It doesn’t detract from the negative parts of Joel’s choice. As far as Joel knew, he was choosing Ellie over the world and that choice was still bad.

But the game itself (proved ability to grow Ellie’s fungus in alternative growth medium, the fireflies extremely hasty decision to go straight to lethal extraction in only the time it took Joel to wake up from the knock to his head) and basic science (you’re saying otherwise excellent writers in a game with such high production values didn’t bother doing five minutes of googling how vaccines work?) both support a more complex narrative than ‘the fireflies were totes going to save the world with one decaying brain, srsly, omg’
Indeed, if they don't know why she's immune, then they're light years aware from helping anyone else, IF that's even possible, which it most likely would not be. The most likely possibility would be that she simply had a genetic immunity, and such a thing couldn't be used to help anyone else (other than her hypothetical children I guess) without highly advanced gene replacement therapy which is only a theoretical future possibility even in real life.
bloop

User Info: TritochZERO

TritochZERO
3 days ago#34
It's almost like the first game had it's own fair share of plot inconsistencies

User Info: game_man1

game_man1
3 days ago#35
For god's sake people the point of the ending was never "is the cure possible" it was whether or not Joel was right to doom the world for the sake of a girl who absolutely would have given her life for the chance at that cure.

If the cure is suddenly not possible then not only do you take away the ambiguity of the ending you also take away all consequences of Joel's choice as well as the lie he told to Ellie being completely pointless.

User Info: Robin_Mask

Robin_Mask
3 days ago#36
game_man1 posted...
For god's sake people the point of the ending was never "is the cure possible" it was whether or not Joel was right to doom the world for the sake of a girl who absolutely would have given her life for the chance at that cure.

If the cure is suddenly not possible then not only do you take away the ambiguity of the ending you also take away all consequences of Joel's choice as well as the lie he told to Ellie being completely pointless.
Ergo, the title being a total downer and reveals the ending.

The cure is possible but not guaranteed... until the stupid tweet lol. Which ruined the ambiguity.
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Robin_Mask posted...
Druckman tweeted that a cure would have happened lol. Of course, it's just a bulls*** excuse and nothing else. Ruins the ambiguity of the ending.

It doesn't matter what he said would have happened because that's not the story he went with. It could be that if he tried to write the story that way he wouldn't have been able to make it work. There's no way within reason that the Fireflies would have succeeded in making a cure given the condition they were in at the end of the game. There weren't very many of them left and they were alone in an abandoned hospital that was probably attacked regularly by infected and hunters. I mentioned this in another thread but in the real world there are a ton of people working on a cure for the Coronavirus. It's a worldwide effort. I simply don't believe that a handful of scientists in the middle of a zombie apocalypse were going to find a cure for a disease that wiped out most of humanity. Even if they had succeeded in making a vaccine, they had no way of mass-producing it for millions of people or distributing it to whatever remains of humanity.

User Info: pwiggler

pwiggler
3 days ago#38
it's also because you don't need to lop out gray matter from her brain, some blood wouldve worked.
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User Info: Robin_Mask

Robin_Mask
3 days ago#39
XxAxem_BlackxX posted...
It doesn't matter what he said would have happened because that's not the story he went with. It could be that if he tried to write the story that way he wouldn't have been able to make it work. There's no way within reason that the Fireflies would have succeeded in making a cure given the condition they were in at the end of the game. There weren't very many of them left and they were alone in an abandoned hospital that was probably attacked regularly by infected and hunters. I mentioned this in another thread but in the real world there are a ton of people working on a cure for the Coronavirus. It's a worldwide effort. I simply don't believe that a handful of scientists in the middle of a zombie apocalypse were going to find a cure for a disease that wiped out most of humanity. Even if they had succeeded in making a vaccine, they had no way of mass-producing it for millions of people or distributing it to whatever remains of humanity.
Obviously, it's just done to guilt trip players and nothing else.

Agreed with the rest of your post. Great examples and details.
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User Info: Blackstar110

Blackstar110
3 days ago#40
People really think the ambiguity of TLOU comes from whether Joel was lying to Ellie or whether a cure was possible? This is where we decide to get pedantic and question the realism of our brain-mushroom zombie game? It stretches credibility too much that developing a vaccine is possible, but not that mushrooms can grow on your brain and turn you into a giant waddling fungus that throws poisonous orbs at people?

Guys, I know you’re all in a hurry to yell CUCKMANN BAD or something, but I gotta tell ya, that is the entire point of the ending. Ellie is unique, there is no one like her, they believe they can make a cure and are on the cusp of the biggest medical advancement since penicillin, and Joel does not care. He does not care that it will likely work, he does not care that it’s what Ellie wanted, he cares about saving his surrogate daughter. Even without Word of God from the devs that the cure would’ve definitely worked, the implication was always that it probably would’ve worked at minimum, and Joel’s decision was 0% motivated by the odds. You could’ve told him it was a 100% guarantee or a 20% chance and he would’ve done the exact same thing.

THAT is the moral ambiguity, whether a) he did the right thing and b) if not, could you have done any different if it was your daughter and you were him? This whole notion that “well the cure probably wouldn’t have worked anyway” is massively skirting the gravity of his choice and absolving him of a very dark decision because you apparently can’t handle your protagonist being gray. TLOU’s ending is not a story of Joel saving his daughter from evil presumptuous mad scientists.

EDIT: Also have zero idea what you're on about with this whole "guilting the player" nonsense. The player isn't Joel. The player doesn't get a choice. That's like saying you're guilting the viewer when Walter White or Don Draper or Tony Soprano does something questionable.
-Shred
(edited 3 days ago)
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