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  3. TLOU2 is Druckmann's revenge on people who liked Joel in TLOU1 *SPOILERS*

User Info: Darkling183

Darkling183
1 week ago#1
It's probably safe to say that a lot of people who played the first game came away from it liking Joel. He had a compelling and well-told character arc, going from single dad to Tess's amoral hired muscle, and then eventually to someone who was finally opening up to feeling emotions again. Many players were rooting for Joel to save Ellie no matter what at the end, and saw his actions as heroic.

However, Druckmann clearly intended for players to be far more ambivalent about Joel's decision at the end of the first game.

Regardless of whether or not the Fireflies would have been able to develop a cure after studying Ellie's brain, Joel didn't give any consideration to what Ellie herself might have wanted. He gave in to his own emotions (particularly his grief over losing his daughter) and made the choice for Ellie, depriving her of any agency and lying about it to Ellie afterwards. The game ends on an ambiguous shot of Ellie saying "okay", leaving it unclear whether or not she believes him.

But people still liked Joel, despite all this. So, in TLOU2, Druckmann is now bashing us over the head with his intended message for the first game: "Joel is a bad man".

Joel's decision to save Ellie is what triggers the sequel's entire revenge cycle: first Abby wants revenge on Joel, and kills him; and then Ellie wants revenge on Abby, only to ultimately realise that she can't go through with it.

Along the way, an Asian man and Asian woman are killed. A black woman is tortured and killed. A transgender person is hung up on a pole. Ellie's lesbian girlfriend goes through emotional distress and abandons her.

Ellie herself loses two fingertips and the ability to play guitar. She walks away from the entire experience with nothing.

It's like Druckmann is bashing the audience over the head while yelling, "The toxic white male started all of this! See how many minorities suffered because of him? None of this would have happened if he'd allowed Ellie to make her own choice! She even says in the final scene that she knew she was supposed to die in the hospital! But Joel hasn't learned a thing and says that he'd do the same thing again if he had the choice. Ellie is nice and wants to forgive him, but her life is about to be completely ruined because of Joel! Joel is bad, okay??"

Way to throw a hissy fit because people didn't react to the storyline of the first game the way you wanted them to, Druckmann. That's class; that's real class.

User Info: x_CoRrUpTioN_x

x_CoRrUpTioN_x
1 week ago#2
Lol.
"I don't always chug, but when I do I choose Estus. Stay salty my friends."

User Info: EveryonesGrudge

EveryonesGrudge
1 week ago#3
A+ post. Wonderful rant, but not unhinged, with just enough good points to make you say "You know, that's not entirely crazy..."
The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.

User Info: IronAvenger08

IronAvenger08
1 week ago#4
I think it's interesting when you look at society in general. Joel was a typical working man type of character. He represented the stereotype of a southern American white Male. But we fell in love with Joel because he became something better from accepting his loss and taking in Ellie. Ellie represented the new American culture. She was young, hip, open minded, and LGBT. So for the old American way of being (Joel) openly accepted the new world way of being (Ellie).

So when Abby killed Joel, it felt more like resentment the new world way of being has on the old American way. And when you think about it we as a society love to clump together people innocent and guilty into the same category. The perceptions of the gay community and even the straight community have hindered us from accepting that not everyone in each group are bad people with agendas. This is why Ellie represented the concept of breaking the chains and being the change the new world needs to find a path to peace.

User Info: the0rebirth

the0rebirth
1 week ago#5
I agreed until the identity politics stuff.
"The Dragon Ball Super anime is lowering the IQ of the characters so the DB fan base can relate to them better." -Acharyap28

User Info: Darkling183

Darkling183
1 week ago#6
the0rebirth posted...
I agreed until the identity politics stuff.

To clarify, the identity politics stuff isn't me; it's what I think Druckmann is trying to project onto the story for wokeness reasons. =)

User Info: HashtagVillain

HashtagVillain
1 week ago#7
Christ, you're not supposed to feel one way or the other about Joel. It's called ambiguity.

He was not a good man. He wasn't a bad man either, but he did a lot of horrible things that he paid the price for.

User Info: luckyrusty007

luckyrusty007
1 week ago#8
Darkling183 posted...
It's probably safe to say that a lot of people who played the first game came away from it liking Joel. He had a compelling and well-told character arc, going from single dad to Tess's amoral hired muscle, and then eventually to someone who was finally opening up to feeling emotions again. Many players were rooting for Joel to save Ellie no matter what at the end, and saw his actions as heroic.

However, Druckmann clearly intended for players to be far more ambivalent about Joel's decision at the end of the first game.

Regardless of whether or not the Fireflies would have been able to develop a cure after studying Ellie's brain, Joel didn't give any consideration to what Ellie herself might have wanted. He gave in to his own emotions (particularly his grief over losing his daughter) and made the choice for Ellie, depriving her of any agency and lying about it to Ellie afterwards. The game ends on an ambiguous shot of Ellie saying "okay", leaving it unclear whether or not she believes him.

But people still liked Joel, despite all this. So, in TLOU2, Druckmann is now bashing us over the head with his intended message for the first game: "Joel is a bad man".

Joel's decision to save Ellie is what triggers the sequel's entire revenge cycle: first Abby wants revenge on Joel, and kills him; and then Ellie wants revenge on Abby, only to ultimately realise that she can't go through with it.

Along the way, an Asian man and Asian woman are killed. A black woman is tortured and killed. A transgender person is hung up on a pole. Ellie's lesbian girlfriend goes through emotional distress and abandons her.

Ellie herself loses two fingertips and the ability to play guitar. She walks away from the entire experience with nothing.

It's like Druckmann is bashing the audience over the head while yelling, "The toxic white male started all of this! See how many minorities suffered because of him? None of this would have happened if he'd allowed Ellie to make her own choice! She even says in the final scene that she knew she was supposed to die in the hospital! But Joel hasn't learned a thing and says that he'd do the same thing again if he had the choice. Ellie is nice and wants to forgive him, but her life is about to be completely ruined because of Joel! Joel is bad, okay??"

Way to throw a hissy fit because people didn't react to the storyline of the first game the way you wanted them to, Druckmann. That's class; that's real class.

I think you're making your own political/social commentary about this. We supported, even rationalized Joel's decision. This is the world that was crafted. This was the outcome and grave consequences for Joel's decision. Yes everyone suffered as an indirect result of his decision to rescue Ellie.

The extra part about the white man causing all the suffering is your own musings.

User Info: EveryonesGrudge

EveryonesGrudge
1 week ago#9
HashtagVillain posted...
Christ, you're not supposed to feel one way or the other about Joel. It's called ambiguity.

He was not a good man. He wasn't a bad man either, but he did a lot of horrible things that he paid the price for.


Yeah, but...everyone loved Joel. Of course there are discussions about whether he was right or wrong, and of course we can say "Joel really isn't a great human being." But in the last 7 years I don't recall anyone saying "I really don't like Joel."

It's the Walter White anti-hero thing. People were legit pissed at his DEA brother in law for trying to stop him lol
The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.

User Info: HashtagVillain

HashtagVillain
1 week ago#10
EveryonesGrudge posted...
Yeah, but...everyone loved Joel. Of course there are discussions about whether he was right or wrong, and of course we can say "Joel really isn't a great human being." But in the last 7 years I don't recall anyone saying "I really don't like Joel."

It's the Walter White anti-hero thing. People were legit pissed at his DEA brother in law for trying to stop him lol

Of course you're supposed to feel attached to him. That's the point. You're supposed to HATE Abby. You're supposed to want revenge on her as much as Ellie. Because she loved Joel, as much as we the players loved Joel. But when the change in perspective comes it re-contextualizes Joel's actions in the first game so that it's impossible to ignore the damage he caused, or spare him the consequences of his actions.

It's not the game saying, "Ah ha! Now you see he's reeaallly been the villain they whole time! Got you!"

It's the game saying, "See how no one's hands are clean in this whole bloody mess? See that people can't just be defined by their self-less or selfish acts alone?"
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