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  3. Super Manga Proves Ultimate Gohan >>>>>> SSJ3 Goku

User Info: Luminaire

Luminaire
4 weeks ago#491
SpiralSwords posted...
More accurately: "I can't beat you no matter how hard I try, so I'll run for now until I'm more brave to confront you". That's the standard I'm using. The one reflected in the story.
Ok well the stated one is that Goku can't fight SPC no matter how hard he tries. That applies to PC too.

Goku avoided 2 out of the 3. He was able to participate in a well-matched battle in the last. He also had Gohan.
No... Goku had no chance against Cell. His well matched battle is against a Cell that wasn't desperate and holding back against a desperate Goku going his hardest.

Goku still ran despite being excited about fighting enemies being stronger than Freeza.
Both things happened.
Only one of things things matter for Toriyama's quote. That's what I am discussing and what you replied to orignally.

So let's do this again:

So again, Goku and Gohan are fighting in the "Super Saiyan Full Power" state. A state that took them to their limits and changed the entire aura of the form.

Super Saiyan Full Power>Super Saiyan Grade 3>Super Saiyan Grade 2>Super Saiyan

It started out as the regular Super Saiyan form and evolved into something else altogether. It maximized all of the power while eliminating all of the weaknesses the previous forms brought about. It's the strongest state of the Super Saiyan.
Goku literally says normal SS is best. This is before he masters it. So Vegeta and Trunks might believe that they surpassed SS1 but they are wrong. Goku confirms that normal SS is better. He even says "Now I know" so whatever we were lead to believe until now can be ignored.

Perfected Blue is Super Saiyan Blue but sealing the power of Blue away without letting it leak. Even still, it's considered a different form altogether.
Ok but SS Grade 2 and 3 are inferior to normal SS1. Goku says this as a new revelation overturning earlier statements.
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User Info: SpiralSwords

SpiralSwords
4 weeks ago#492
Luminaire posted...
It's a good match because he's sandbagging. Roshi explains this. It "looks like a good fight but Goku is desperate and Cell isn't." So desperate Goku is a good fight for massively suppressed Cell and even then desperate Goku still has no chance.

How it came to be a good fight doesn't matter. Like I said, Cell restrained his power against everyone. Even when doing that, only Goku was strong enough to give him a worthwhile fight.

Uhhhh... exactly. Cell sandbags A LOT and his statements are not accurate. Do you really believe that Cell can't match Buff Trunks' power? He was sandbagging there too but using your logic we must know that Trunks is even stronger than Cell. He's not. And Goku is special only in that Cell believes the strongest so he can sandbag less. That's it.

Cell knew he held the advantage after seeing the extent of his power. This wasn't enough to deter him from wanting to fight with him. If Cell and Goku believe the match is fun enough to be considered a good fight despite the handicap, then it is.

The first one applies to Goku vs Cell. That's what Toriyama said.

"I can't beat the Androids or Cell as I am now. I have to train."
"I can't beat you now no matter how hard I fight. But give me a day!"
*Runs from Cell*

AT wrote and drew every scenario above.

"And Cell was lying to all of them. He was pretending like Vegeta's blast was a threat. It wasn't. That Trunks' Buff form had more power than Cell could ever have. He didn't. That Goku was a good fight. He wasn't really."

Goku still forced Cell to raise a barrier at the level he was fighting at. Cell was also pretty winded from doing it, so it's not really comparable to Vegeta's Final Flash. That attack did nothing to his stamina or power.

Cell said it was a good fight that he hoped would continue. Goku (under the impression that he would lose) also thought the same. Meaning: at the levels they were clashing in, it was a good fight.

"Goku couldn't beat PC no matter how hard he tried. That's all we need to confirm since that's the standard."

It isn't my standard. Goku ran from Cell...proving that the circumstances in which he will fight does matter. If it didn't matter, he wouldn't have ran.

"Yes and it applies to Perfect Cell to. He can't beat him either no matter how hard he tries."

https://i.imgur.com/NMiDWGw.jpg

Goku originally said he would train and give up if that wasn't strong enough to win. Since we see that he already went into battle believing he wouldn't win, it means there was a change down the line. The change being Gohan's presence.

Stick with the standard you cited:

He avoided Semi-Cell because he had no chance. He didn't avoid Perfect Cell because he didn't need to win. Gohan was there.

"Same as above. You now concede that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu right? So... how does that work?"

Goku said defeating Super Boo would've been easy if they were merged. What this means is Goku never expected a fight with Super Boo to be easy. There's also Goku telling Vegeta he was dumb for breaking the Potara because now he'll have to go back to Otherworld

So Goku wanted an easy method to deal with Super Boo and to keep Vegeta from returning. Both are stated.
"I ain't INTERESTED in a buncha scrubs like you!!"-Cloud Strife

User Info: SpiralSwords

SpiralSwords
4 weeks ago#493
Luminaire posted...

It shows that when Goku is massively outmatched he's still ok on some level if he gets his combat fix. This is the core of Goku's character.

His "combat fix" requires him to participate in what he would consider a good fight. On Kaio's world, Beerus was the first opponent he encountered in awhile. He didn't come away from that little duel smiling about the situation. The Power of Super Saiyan God gave him a taste of Godhood and allowed him to put up a good fight against Beerus.

So this is, yet again, another example of why the type of fight matters. Simply fighting someone several levels above him isn't considered fun. He told us that.

Yes and Beerus is so far above Goku too and Goku is fine there. The difference with Buutenks is that Goku literally cannot fight him fairly without risking killing people he cares for.

Goku didn't come away from the encounter on Kaio's cheerful about his defeat. Probably because he was shown to be completely worthless in the battle. Goku fighting Boo does not require him to finish him. Again, you're going against every single battle Boo has fought in where he was the clear inferior. And you're ignoring how Goku can easily stall against someone he's supposedly stronger than if it only needs to be done until Gohan finds the Potara.

"And he yet he's still willing to pretend that he can't beat Super Buu and fuse with some one permanently. Before you changed your mind the permanent fusion was absolute proof. So now you can't blame me for using that same thing against you. Permanent fusion, according to you, is just as bad or worse."

https://i.imgur.com/wKOrYod.jpg?1

To easily defeat Super Boo.

https://i.imgur.com/u2FWYIE.jpg?1

To prevent Vegeta from going back to the Otherworld.

I know you're not comparing merging with Vegeta to someone that's more likely to bring Goku down than help. Everyone is dead. Who is Goku pretending for when he's the last man standing in front of Boo after watching Gohan get absorbed? Who?

"Admitting that he could've beaten Fat Buu only now and not before is the same as pretending he was weaker than Fat Buu before."

He never admitted to being weaker than Fat Boo, so that's not true.

"In the situation with SPC Goku wanted to fight him tomorrow. Literally in that very situation, Goku proves he wants to fight him by saying he wants to fight him tomorrow. That's all we need."

Then he ran in the same situation.

"And with Super Buu he pretended like he couldn't fight him and was willing or at least willing to pretend, that he needed to fuse with Vegeta. What's the logic for that to you? Why can't you ppply that same logic with Buutenks."

https://i.imgur.com/wKOrYod.jpg?1

To easily defeat Super Boo.

https://i.imgur.com/u2FWYIE.jpg?1

To prevent Vegeta from going back to the Otherworld.

Piccolo Boo=Gohan can take him down without needing to rely on the Potara
Gotenks Boo=Needs the Potara
Gohan Boo=Needs the Potara

Same logic doesn't apply.

"That's your problem. Your standard is your own thing. I don't care about your standard"

It's not my standard. It's literally what happened. AT drew Goku running. At wrote Goku reiterating the fact that he needs to train because he isn't enough. Not me.

"It's also stated that Vegeta's blast was a threat to him. "

Not by Cell, no.

"Who cares? He admits he can't win even after the training. Moreover the good fight is only with a desperate Goku against a relaxed Cell that is still massively holding back. That's all we have for a "good fight" and even on that level it's obvious Goku had no chance."

It doesn't matter because winning was no longer a priority. Goku said he would give up if he realized he wasn't enough to win. Clearly this wasn't a thing because Goku realized that before fighting Cell. We're told why he was calm the entire time later on.

"That's not the question we need to answer from Toriyama's quote."

Who drew Goku running from Cell and later describing him as a monster?

"Yes. Logic states that your obsession with your own standard doesn't matter to Toriyama's standard."

Then you're flat-out wrong. You're also ignoring Goku pinpointing exactly why he won't fight Cell. Lines that were written by AT, but somehow you want to separate them from AT.

"Well I'm just applying Toriyama's quote to Goku."

You're applying it to him in an erroneous way, yes. Because if it didn't matter, Goku wouldn't have ran.

"I ain't INTERESTED in a buncha scrubs like you!!"-Cloud Strife

User Info: SpiralSwords

SpiralSwords
4 weeks ago#494
Luminaire posted...
Ok well the stated one is that Goku can't fight SPC no matter how hard he tries. That applies to PC too.

Pre-Rosat Goku didn't witness Gohan's latent power like he did in the Post-Rosat. It doesn't apply because his approach was entirely different in both. Goku said he would beat Cell to a pulp. He was right. He would beat Semi-Cell to a pulp after his rosat training. Things changed. Cell reached Perfection, Gohan surpassed him, and showed latent power that he deemed to be their only hope at winning.

So "Goku did this here, therefore it's the same as here" isn't a thing.

No... Goku had no chance against Cell. His well matched battle is against a Cell that wasn't desperate and holding back against a desperate Goku going his hardest.

He didn't need one. He had Gohan. All he needed was a good fight before putting things into Gohan's hands.

"Only one of things things matter for Toriyama's quote."

And the only thing that matters in AT's story is that Goku will run from an opponent out of necessity. It happened. No amount of hand-waving and pretending it didn't happen will change that.

"I ain't INTERESTED in a buncha scrubs like you!!"-Cloud Strife

User Info: ColZach

ColZach
4 weeks ago#495
We’re almost there!!!! Buu-Anons in shambles!!!

User Info: ColZach

ColZach
4 weeks ago#496
Seriously this s*** is sad boo-anon kids, these terrible ideas get drowned out with logic literally anywhere else on the internet, 2021 and you’re still in the vast minority

User Info: Luminaire

Luminaire
4 weeks ago#497
SpiralSwords posted...
How it came to be a good fight doesn't matter. Like I said, Cell restrained his power against everyone. Even when doing that, only Goku was strong enough to give him a worthwhile fight.... Cell knew he held the advantage after seeing the extent of his power. This wasn't enough to deter him from wanting to fight with him. If Cell and Goku believe the match is fun enough to be considered a good fight despite the handicap, then it is.
This makes no sense Cell could make any fight a good fight if he wanted. He can hold back more and more and fight Trunks in a good fight if he wanted.

AT wrote and drew every scenario above.
Ok... and Goku wanted to fight them. What's your point?

Goku still forced Cell to raise a barrier at the level he was fighting at. Cell was also pretty winded from doing it, so it's not really comparable to Vegeta's Final Flash. That attack did nothing to his stamina or power.... Cell said it was a good fight that he hoped would continue. Goku (under the impression that he would lose) also thought the same. Meaning: at the levels they were clashing in, it was a good fight.
Goku "forced" a massively suppressed Cell to put up a barrier. This version of Cell voluntarily suppressed his power. Had he fought all out Goku can't force Cell to do a damn thing.

It isn't my standard. Goku ran from Cell...proving that the circumstances in which he will fight does matter. If it didn't matter, he wouldn't have ran.
The circumstances don't contradict how Goku wanted to fight Cell which is... you know... the point.

Goku originally said he would train and give up if that wasn't strong enough to win. Since we see that he already went into battle believing he wouldn't win, it means there was a change down the line. The change being Gohan's presence.... He avoided Semi-Cell because he had no chance. He didn't avoid Perfect Cell because he didn't need to win. Gohan was there.
You know what didn't change? Goku wanted to fight Cell before and after. That's all that matters for this debate.

Goku said defeating Super Boo would've been easy if they were merged. What this means is Goku never expected a fight with Super Boo to be easy. There's also Goku telling Vegeta he was dumb for breaking the Potara because now he'll have to go back to Otherworld
OK so why does he want to permanently fuse against Super Buu but he wants to fight one on one against a stronger Kid Buu?

So Goku wanted an easy method to deal with Super Boo and to keep Vegeta from returning. Both are stated.
Goku still pretends even after Vegeta says he doesn't care about going back to the afterlife:
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”
So why does it make sense for you that Goku wants to fuse against one guy but wants to fight another even stronger guy one on one? Vegeta's status as a dead person doesn't apply to the quote above.
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User Info: SpiralSwords

SpiralSwords
4 weeks ago#498
Goku isn't above running from opponents.
"I ain't INTERESTED in a buncha scrubs like you!!"-Cloud Strife

User Info: ColZach

ColZach
4 weeks ago#499
why does Goku act like a scared little b**** to fight Buutenks, Buuhan, and Super Buu? Cause he’s outclassed

User Info: SpiralSwords

SpiralSwords
4 weeks ago#500
He ran.
"I ain't INTERESTED in a buncha scrubs like you!!"-Cloud Strife
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