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  3. Your Reaction: What if Toyotaro decided to retcon Jiren > Belmod?

User Info: FlyingWindGod

FlyingWindGod
1 month ago#21
yakashamonian posted...
in fairness I believe Irwin just says they've reached God level of powers. Broly and Gogeta are saiyan level opponents. Raditz is also saiyan tier. so there ya go. that makes it just mean they're insanely strong.

Belmond is also IIRC the youngest GoD and already considering retiring. It's honestly not that impressive if you think about that.

And Ultra instinct being an ultimate transformation and Beerus freaking out, can easily just be brushed off is. Beerus is the most powerful thing in the universe outside of his angel and he's just freaking and pissy because someone outside of Whis can do something he can't.

without even changing anything, everythings fixed.


I don't know what you mean by the first point. God level of powers means just that, you're within the realm of their level of strength. Gogeta and Broly are not simply "saiyan" level strength, in fact not even Super Saiyan qualifies. Their strength is that of Super Saiyan Gods. That's their realm.

For the 2nd point, Belmod's age in comparison with Beerus appears younger but we have no idea how it compares to the other GoDs. And age has little to do with level of strength. There's nothing substantial hinting that Belmod is much, much weaker than Beerus. And in fact, the manga goes to great lengths to suggest the GoDs are more or less on equal footing, Belmod and Quitela specifically probably even being a match for Beerus. Yet for someone like Jiren whose so definitively stronger than Belmod and for Goku in UI to rival him, means that the idea of Beerus being much stronger completely shatters whatever notion you'd have about the GoDs being on a completely different level.

Finally, Beerus' reaction is completely inconsistent. You say him throwing a hissy fit is in character for him (I don't think it really is personally) yet he seems almost completely indifferent to Goku getting better and better with the technique now. And acknowledges that he has something just as good if not better. The contrast in his attitude just doesn't make any sense.

The premise for the ToP arc really falls apart under scrutiny now, almost as badly as Battle of Gods does now when looking at later story arcs. It'd have to be reworked to fit any kind of cohesive narrative.

User Info: SpiralSwords

SpiralSwords
1 month ago#22
SupremeGod91 posted...
But Hakai energy is about pure “power” and combat “strength”.

The way Toppo's statement is written leaves other possibilities open because of how specific it is.

If it was simply a matter of Jiren>Belmod, there'd be no reason to specify how ("In terms of Battle Power" is what Herms said is the actual translation) Jiren holds the upperhand. It'd simply be "Jiren is stronger than Belmod" period. Hakai is still stated to be a "technique" when all is said and done.

Since there is a newer emphasis on what the Hakai actually is, it leaves room for Belmod to come out superior to Jiren.
"I ain't INTERESTED in a buncha scrubs like you!!"-Cloud Strife

User Info: FlyingWindGod

FlyingWindGod
1 month ago#23
SpiralSwords posted...
The way Toppo's statement is written leaves other possibilities open because of how specific it is.

If it was simply a matter of Jiren>Belmod, there'd be no reason to specify how ("In terms of Battle Power" is what Herms said is the actual translation) Jiren holds the upperhand. It'd simply be "Jiren is stronger than Belmod" period. Hakai is still stated to be a "technique" when all is said and done.

Since there is a newer emphasis on what the Hakai actually is, it leaves room for Belmod to come out superior to Jiren.

Well.... I'd agree with that normally, except for what Beerus says this chapter:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/4/9/AAXwgvAABgU1.jpg

If he's referring to "battle power" here, then I think that nips that theory. Because he makes it sound like the mindset of Hakai does indeed raise your combat strength, possibly to an infinite degree depending on your proficiency... uncannily similar to how UI works. So Toppo would've had to have been referring to Belmod's base power level or.... like Vegeta before this chapter, didn't know Belmod or a God of Destruction could effectively raise their battle power this way.

Although that may be another question to take up with Herms, is there a specific Kanji for "battle power"?

User Info: Djyc21215

Djyc21215
1 month ago#24
FlyingWindGod posted...


Although that may be another question to take up with Herms, is there a specific Kanji for "battle power"?

Yes. 戦闘力 "Sentouryoku"

User Info: FlyingWindGod

FlyingWindGod
1 month ago#25
Djyc21215 posted...
Yes. 戦闘力 "Sentouryoku"


You wouldn't happen to have the raws of the latest chapter, would you? Particularly of that same panel of Beerus.

I'd be curious if that same phrasing was in that line of his.

User Info: SpiralSwords

SpiralSwords
1 month ago#26
FlyingWindGod posted...
Well.... I'd agree with that normally, except for what Beerus says this chapter:

If he's referring to "battle power" here, then I think that nips that theory. Because he makes it sound like the mindset of Hakai does indeed raise your combat strength, possibly to an infinite degree depending on your proficiency... uncannily similar to how UI works. So Toppo would've had to have been referring to Belmod's base power level or.... like Vegeta before this chapter, didn't know Belmod or a God of Destruction could effectively raise their battle power this way.

Although that may be another question to take up with Herms, is there a specific Kanji for "battle power"?

Being a GoD Candidate, Toppo should naturally be aware of the full-extent of Hakai. At least when looking at it from an in-universe standpoint.

Having said that, based on how Hakai was portrayed around that time (a technique that simply deleted someone), I'm gonna assume Toppo was only referring to Belmod's Full-Power on a normal basis. I feel like you just have to make certain things up at this point because none of the stuff really meshes well.

"I ain't INTERESTED in a buncha scrubs like you!!"-Cloud Strife

User Info: UIZeno

UIZeno
1 month ago#27
Basically, SpiralSwords and FlyingWindGod have covered what I was gonna say.

It can be Jiren > Belmod in terms of raw power. The raw power Belmod, and the other GoDs, used at the Royale.

Currently, since it implies that Hakai raises your power, like it'll do for Vegeta, they may not have a hard time claiming Belmod can defeat Jiren with hakai.

It's only in the anime where they say "There is a mortal that not even his Destroyer can defeat". And hakai was nothing special and the GoDs got auras like Toppo did when they were gonna fight.
You're not responsible for people's assumptions about you. You're also not obliged to remain the person people remember you to be.

User Info: yakashamonian

yakashamonian
1 month ago#28
FlyingWindGod posted...
I don't know what you mean by the first point. God level of powers means just that, you're within the realm of their level of strength. Gogeta and Broly are not simply "saiyan" level strength, in fact not even Super Saiyan qualifies. Their strength is that of Super Saiyan Gods. That's their realm.

For the 2nd point, Belmod's age in comparison with Beerus appears younger but we have no idea how it compares to the other GoDs. And age has little to do with level of strength. There's nothing substantial hinting that Belmod is much, much weaker than Beerus. And in fact, the manga goes to great lengths to suggest the GoDs are more or less on equal footing, Belmod and Quitela specifically probably even being a match for Beerus. Yet for someone like Jiren whose so definitively stronger than Belmod and for Goku in UI to rival him, means that the idea of Beerus being much stronger completely shatters whatever notion you'd have about the GoDs being on a completely different level.

Finally, Beerus' reaction is completely inconsistent. You say him throwing a hissy fit is in character for him (I don't think it really is personally) yet he seems almost completely indifferent to Goku getting better and better with the technique now. And acknowledges that he has something just as good if not better. The contrast in his attitude just doesn't make any sense.

The premise for the ToP arc really falls apart under scrutiny now, almost as badly as Battle of Gods does now when looking at later story arcs. It'd have to be reworked to fit any kind of cohesive narrative.

my point of the first post is, powers possibly just vary widely. a humans powerl evel on average is supposed to be 5. you could say by the saiyan saga the human z-fighters fight on the level of a saiyan. Because they're on the level of low class saiyan warriors.

However then you have someone like Broly who is also a saiyan who's insanely above those levels. There's also Toppo and Vegeta. Belmond makes Toppo a GoD candidate for replacement while Vegeta is stated to be strong enough to be a GoD candidate in other universes according to Beerus.

All I'm saying is Irwins statement that their powers being in the realm of the gods doesn't necessarily mean they're actually anywhere near their levels. as Vegeta's a little stronger than Toppo who is "GoD" level as he's a candidate, but Vegeta is constantly getting destroyed by Beerus.

and Beerus throwing a hissy fit isn't really out of his character. He's chill in some chapters. But the dude was literally going to blow up the planet over Buu eating extra pudding cups does it really seem out of Beerus's nature to get upset that some 40 year old dude semi mastered an angel technique that he tried and couldn't?

Beerus's comments imply he can't really master UI due to his destructive nature but he seems to somewhat be able to use it. saiyans are also destructive by nature Yet Goku is different

and yes the GoD's seem to be around the same level but Hakai mastery seems to be implied to be similar to UI except a different direction. Take Whis's statement for example. Goku "mastered" UI but Whis states there's different levels to the ability and Goku is actually at the bottom. Belmond could be near Beerus, and Jiren could be stronger physically. But Beerus's mastery of Hakai could be far above his.

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User Info: SupremeGod91

SupremeGod91
1 month ago#29
Now with the manga’s seemingly new agenda of Hakai Power being >>>>> Non Hakai power.. And it being reintroduced as an opposite but EQUAL technique to UI. We know that Belmod has been a GoD for at least many thousands of years.. And so is obviously more experienced and skilled with it than Toppo is, (whom SSBE Vegeta already defeated..) There’s no reason (or room) for Belmod to fit in between GoD Toppo and Jiren’s power..

The problem is the GoD Battle Royale fight...

If Beerus is >>>>>>>>>>> current UI Goku still (which clearly is the case here) and current UI Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ToP Limits Surpassed Manga Jiren.... who is (as stated) >>> Belmod.

Then how the hell did Belmod manage to perform so well during the GoD Battle Royale against all the other Gods, including Beerus and Quitella???!

It doesn’t make ANY sense!

Unless they retcon his strength to being much stronger than Jiren again...

That would solve ALL of it!

Simply have the Gods of Destruction sitting on top of the power hierarchy and pyramid once more..

It makes so much more sense afterall. Having a random space alien, gray, and mortal without any God Ki or UI at all surpass a freaking GOD OF DESTRUCTION never sat well with me, and makes zero sense. It’s downright ridiculous, disrespectful and blasphemous.

User Info: Shindas

Shindas
1 month ago#30
SupremeGod91 posted...
Now with the manga’s seemingly new agenda of Hakai Power being >>>>> Non Hakai power.. And it being reintroduced as an opposite but EQUAL technique to UI. We know that Belmod has been a GoD for at least many thousands of years.. And so is obviously more experienced and skilled with it than Toppo is, (whom SSBE Vegeta already defeated..) There’s no reason (or room) for Belmod to fit in between GoD Toppo and Jiren’s power..

The problem is the GoD Battle Royale fight...

If Beerus is >>>>>>>>>>> current UI Goku still (which clearly is the case here) and current UI Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ToP Limits Surpassed Manga Jiren.... who is (as stated) >>> Belmod.

Then how the hell did Belmod manage to perform so well during the GoD Battle Royale against all the other Gods, including Beerus and Quitella???!

It doesn’t make ANY sense!

Unless they retcon his strength to being much stronger than Jiren again...

That would solve ALL of it!

Simply have the Gods of Destruction sitting on top of the power hierarchy and pyramid once more..

It makes so much more sense afterall. Having a random space alien, gray, and mortal without any God Ki or UI at all surpass a freaking GOD OF DESTRUCTION never sat well with me, and makes zero sense. It’s downright ridiculous, disrespectful and blasphemous.

You duly-can get hurt - by a much-weaker opponent esp' when one, lowers their ki, during battle - if they are at inclination to not brawl &, Belmod was using a ki-attack which raises his battle-power..
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