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  3. Convince me that the looting and arson in Minneapolis is good.

User Info: Kodiologist

Kodiologist
1 month ago#1
I agree that Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd. I agree that American policing is a fundamentally broken institution. I agree that big businesses have it comin' to 'em. I can at least see some rationale for throwing bricks at cops. But what's the sense in looting and burning stores? Minimum-wage retail workers are the ones who are going to have to clean up the broken glass and grovel to middle managers not to fire them after fleeing their stores. Neither the police nor the rich are meaningfully harmed, a bunch of unrelated non-rich non-police are hurt, and politicians will get all the popular support they need to call in a militarized police response.

User Info: Jacehan

Jacehan
1 month ago#2
There are two assumptions here that aren't necessarily true. One is that the businesses are unrelated, when we have things like the Target actively working against the community and with the police. Another is that it is the protestors who are looting and committing arson, as opposed to agents provocateur.
"To truly live, one must first be born." ~ Evan [aX]
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User Info: Kodiologist

Kodiologist
1 month ago#3
I can believe that Target Corporation is up to no good, but do you believe that the Target employees who will be made to sweep up the glass are the Target employees who were "actively working against the community and with the police"? In large corporations, it's typically the least paid workers who have to bear the brunt of misfortune, and the executives who actually do evil stuff are at worst fired with golden parachutes.

Jacehan posted...
Another is that it is the protestors who are looting and committing arson, as opposed to agents provocateur.

To be clear, I'm against the looting and arson, not the protest itself, and I'm perplexed that people are happy about the looting and arson part. (How much the looters and arsonists are false-flag operators and how much they're genuine protestors isn't something I can judge.) Here is the Jacobin's take, for example (a publication whose takes I appreciate 90% of the time): https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/05/george-floyd-minneapolis-uprising-police-brutality

User Info: freepizza

freepizza
1 month ago#4
I cannot convince you.

"...you should try reading my posts being getting all emo." --FoxMetal

User Info: DontInterruptMe

DontInterruptMe
1 month ago#5
Can I convince you that every breath or keystroke condemning destruction of property caused by the riots is poorly spent if it could be used instead to talk about the broken police system? If police stopped murdering civilians with impunity, there would be no riots to give rise to looting, so whatever solves the former will solve the latter.

User Info: Jacehan

Jacehan
1 month ago#6
That is a fair point about who is paying - but, while yes, the Target employees do need to clean it up, the Target corporation does still lose money from it. But perhaps better is the MLK quote:

"But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation’s summers of riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention."
"To truly live, one must first be born." ~ Evan [aX]
Paper Mario Social:
The Safe Haven of GameFAQs. (Board 2000083)

User Info: Kodiologist

Kodiologist
1 month ago#7
Last night, a Minneapolis police station was set on fire, which makes a lot more sense than setting a department store on fire.

DontInterruptMe posted...
Can I convince you that every breath or keystroke condemning destruction of property caused by the riots is poorly spent if it could be used instead to talk about the broken police system?

I don't follow. You could as easily argue that every moment spent playing video games is poorly spent if it could be used instead to talk about the broken police system, therefore, how dare you play video games. I didn't post this topic because I thought that by posting this topic I would be doing the most I could to solve systemic racism. (The revolution will not be posted on PMS.) I posted this topic because I'm trying to make sure my ideas make sense.

Jacehan posted...
while yes, the Target employees do need to clean it up, the Target corporation does still lose money from it

Practically nothing, given everything else it has. Smashing up a store is a drop in the bucket to the fat cats, and a slap in the face to the workers.

Sure, I agree with the MLK quote that riots are "the language of the unheard" and that we wouldn't see these particular riots if there wasn't police murder of random black dudes to riot about, but neither an explanation of why a riot occurs, nor a proposal about how to avoid the riot, is an explanation of how smashing department-store windows is actually a good thing.
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: Kodiologist

Kodiologist
1 month ago#8
Upon further reflection, I think the best argument, which I haven't seen fully spelled out in this case but which is related to more widely endorsed points, is that more chaotic rioting helps to bring attention to the cause. There are difficult calculations to be made about how much additional attention is brought by looting department stores versus throwing rocks at cops versus peaceful protest, and how that's balanced against risk to bystanders and the protesters themselves, and to what extent rioting is seen by the public as undermining the protesters' moral high ground, but at least in theory it could work.

User Info: willis5225

willis5225
1 month ago#9
A consideration that I don't think is getting enough attention is that this is happening during the COVID shutdown and a lot of people actually just need food and diapers and such. This is not related related to the murder of Floyd George, but it is absolutely related to the governmental malpractice that has put intense pressure on poor people and especially poor people of color in Minneapolis.

Also a bunch of the property damage was started by agents provocateurs one of whom is quite plausibly a member of the MPD.
Willis, it seems like every other time you post, I need to look up a word that's in the OED or Urban Dictionary but not both.
-Mimir

User Info: Kodiologist

Kodiologist
1 month ago#10
willis5225 posted...
A consideration that I don't think is getting enough attention is that this is happening during the COVID shutdown and a lot of people actually just need food and diapers and such.

That's fair. It remains ethical to steal food to feed your family.
(edited 1 month ago)
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