Oh that reminds me: What's with Souls games?

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User Info: willis5225

7 months ago#1
I really like a Metroidvania. Other stuff is fine, but the core of the GBA/DS Castlevanias to me seem like the apex of a certain kind of game design: Progress rewards you with ever-increasing freedom to explore. That their other mechanics are challenging but not unfair, that they reward retreading old ground with uncommon but exciting rewards, that there are creative boss fights, all that stuff is secondary to the elegance of that core progression mechanic.

Particularly as I have less and less time to play massive, expansive games (if not for that 2012 really terrible hurricane breakup, I'd never have finished Skyrim), it's appealing that Metroidvanias offer tight, contained, rewarding experiences that cap out at 10-20 hours.

But you know what the opposite of that experience is? A Souls game.

I mean, not necessarily. I haven't played Dark Souls, mostly because I haven't bought a console since the original X-Box, but the sense I get from Souls games that get tagged Metroidvania on Steam is that they're punishingly hard and the designers intend for you to die repeatedly to hazards that are not necessarily foreseeable on a first attempt at a level. Which is fine--it's satisfying to overcome patently unfair challenges, and these games are pretty generous with save points (I particularly appreciated They Bleed Pixels's "every time you stand still for three seconds, the game saves" mechanic).

But that's definitely not a Metroidvania. Momodora is *definintely* not a Metroidvania.

This same thing happened when rogue-lite games were all the rage, and you'd end up with (the amazing) Rogue Legacy. And, like, okay, the RPG element to that *did* mean that you'd gain exciting new kinds of mobility as you progressed, but it was mildly abusive of the term.

You know what I'm saying? I'm pretty wired on cold medicine, but you know what I'm saying, right?
Willis, it seems like every other time you post, I need to look up a word that's in the OED or Urban Dictionary but not both.

User Info: HeyDude

7 months ago#2
I patently DON'T know what you're saying, but I haven't played Metroid, Castlevania, Skyrim, Dark Souls, Momodora, or Rogue Legacy, and in fact don't know what a roguelike is.

User Info: Kodiologist

7 months ago#3
I'm not sure whether you mean Rogue Legacy was mildly abusive of the term "roguelite" or "Metroidvania". Perhaps both.

Have you ever stopped to think and forgotten to start again?

User Info: LinkPrime1

7 months ago#4
I get what you are saying my friend. 100%

Souls games are not Metriodvanias. Not at all.
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User Info: Kylo Force

Kylo Force
7 months ago#5
I still contend that one of the best Metroidvanias I've ever played was Kirby and the Amazing Mirror. Check that one out if you ever get the opportunity.
"Sa taong walang takot, walang mataas na bakod."
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User Info: HeyDude

7 months ago#6
With great reluctance I finally looked up what a metroidvania was.

User Info: willis5225

7 months ago#7
Hm yes that was not terribly clear. Rogue Legacy was called a Metroidvania, but it was not really the case. Certainly it was a rogue-lite.

Also, Alex, you clearly know what a roguelike is because I said rogue-lite :-p
Willis, it seems like every other time you post, I need to look up a word that's in the OED or Urban Dictionary but not both.

User Info: PaperSpock

7 months ago#8
My understanding is that the rationale for calling Souls games Metroidvanias lies more in the exploration aspect of them. They contain a variety of areas that seem cordoned off from each other upon initial visit, but later on it becomes clear that they are rather interconnected. You'll be exploring the back of a castle, find a jangly looking rope elevator, and you'll ride it through several areas until you reach one of the starting areas. There are some hard gates created by there being keys, but my understanding is that most gates are difficulty gates; there's overlevelled monsters blocking off areas that if you know your way around the game, you have a chance of getting past, but on a first playthroughs are as good as a hard wall. Experienced players can take on late game areas before fighting early bosses. There's even a starting item, the master key, that gets rid of many of the actually locked gates for more experienced players to take advantage of and get additional nonlinearity.
Fame is but a slow decay.
-Theodore Tilton

User Info: HeyDude

7 months ago#9
I actually don't know what a roguelike is, but I've seen it mentioned so many times on things I didn't take time to read, that I at least have the spelling down.

User Info: zztman5

7 months ago#10
Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, (really, the Mystery Dungeon games in general) and Nethack are good examples of Roguelikes. Roguelikes tend to be turn-based games where everything takes a turn at once, and all the action waits until you take an action; the levels are usually randomly generated to a degree for each separate playthrough of the game, and in many of them (e.g. Nethack), if you die, that's your game; you can't continue from your last save, you have to start a new character.

Games like The Binding of Isaac are more often referred to as "roguelites" because, while each run of the game is randomized, they are more actionized instead of turn-based.
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