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  3. Monster Transformation Table 2 Workarounds

User Info: MysticLord

MysticLord
1 month ago#1
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps/198537-saga-frontier/faqs/58412
Ctrl + f [MTRAN03]

Transformations Table 2:
  • Only your First Ability (checked in the order 8, 1-7) from each Monster Ability Category is used on Table 2. All others are ignored, so the placement of Abilities in your Equip Abilities Menu DOES matter here.
  • Your Current Max HP determines where you start. From there, you continue down in order. If you reach the end without qualifying for any Form (or you started at the end), then you jump back to where you started and check backwards to the beginning, until you've checked every Form on the Table.
  • Each Form may require any combination of the six Monster Ability Categories.
  • For each Required Category, your First Ability for that Category must match any one of the Abilities listed.
  • If a Category isn't listed for a Form, then no Ability is required for that Category.
  • If you satisfy all Required Categories for a Form when you check it, then you will become that Form, or remain in that Form if you already are, unlike Table 1.
  • If you manage to check every Form on both Tables without satisfying the requirements for any of them, you'll remain in your current Form.


How can a hypothetical rebalance work around the frankly broken monster transformation table 2, making it intuitive and easy to use? Note that I want to work within the confines of the existing game, without any assembly hacks.

Issues
  • Skill order/placement matters
  • The "monster part" of each skill may not be obvious and requires a guide or memorization
  • The "monster part" check order isn't obvious and requires a guide or memorization
  • Required HP isn't obvious and requires a guide or memorization
  • None of this is intuitive or visible/legible from within the game


Ideas
  • Having fewer required skills for forms with lower HP requirements means that higher end forms will switch wildly between weak early game forms and powerful late game forms. They do this because when the game hits the end of the table it loops around to the beginning, and it starts just after your current form (or rather around your current HP, which depending on how you do monster HP could be higher than your current form HP requirements). If you're already near the end of the table, you have nowhere to go but down. As such, it is not a good idea to have any forms that have less than 2 required skills, or greater than 3; and there should not be many (or any, if feasible) monster forms with duplicate skill requirements.
  • In vanilla, required HP is pretty absurd especially for late game forms but that's very easy to fix.
  • It is possible to make enemy mecs, mystics, and humans viable forms just by giving them entries in table 1 or 2. If you want to make a certain monster able to change into those forms (perhaps Red Turnip is a cursed ex-mystic, and Slime an ex-human who was transformed by exposure to the Vitality Rune similar to Greta and Watts in Saga Frontier 2), then give that monster a known skill it can't otherwise absorb and make that skill a requirement for that form.
  • Make it obvious via naming conventions what "monster part" each skill corresponds to, and tell players to put their skills in a certain order - specifically the order in which all the skills, used or not, are stored for all forms. I think this order is: head, arm, leg, body, breath, magical.


tl;dr

How do you design the monster form requirements so a Dullahan doesn't switch between crap forms nonstop?
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(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: MysticLord

MysticLord
1 month ago#2
Note that I do want to use the "Monsters can Seal and Equip Skills" hack.
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a bazinga.

User Info: Rainrir

Rainrir
1 month ago#3
MysticLord posted...
* The "monster part" of each skill may not be obvious and requires a guide or memorization

This is rectified in the remaster. Each skill have an icon associated with it that shows its part. (aka "Head" skill shows a monster head, "Leg Skills" shows a monster leg etc)

How do you design the monster form requirements so a Dullahan doesn't switch between crap forms nonstop?

The simple way to fix this is to remove all single-skill monster forms. Dullahan is just the form that has it the toughest because it has ALL(!!) skills leading to single-skill monster forms.

The reason why many monster forms are unstable is because single-skill monster forms easily meet the check conditions, and cause a transformation to that form, when a form-maintain skills are misaligned due to absorbing new skills.
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: tiornys

tiornys
1 month ago#4
MysticLord posted...
They do this because when the game hits the end of the table it loops around to the beginning,
This is inaccurate, and the correct mechanics should be helpful for a fix. When the game hits the end of the table it bounces and starts going backwards through the table. So, you can form a pretty good guard against extreme power drop by having some easy to qualify forms of appropriate power level at the end of each section of the table.

User Info: DeltaInferno

DeltaInferno
1 month ago#5
It may take quite a bit of time but rewriting the second table so strongest forms are on the top may fix a lot of the issues.
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User Info: MysticLord

MysticLord
1 month ago#6
tiornys posted...
This is inaccurate, and the correct mechanics should be helpful for a fix. When the game hits the end of the table it bounces and starts going backwards through the table. So, you can form a pretty good guard against extreme power drop by having some easy to qualify forms of appropriate power level at the end of each section of the table.
Does it start going backwards from where it last was, or from where your max HP qualified you to start?

In that case, you are right - putting forms that are harder to qualify earlier in each section (likely organized on BR, roughly) and easier to qualify forms later would fix that.

DeltaInferno posted...
It may take quite a bit of time but rewriting the second table so strongest forms are on the top may fix a lot of the issues.
Do you mean at the end of the table, where required HP is highest?

Rainrir posted...
This is rectified in the remaster. Each skill have an icon associated with it that shows its part. (aka "Head" skill shows a monster head, "Leg Skills" shows a monster leg etc)

Not terribly feasible since I only work with the OG, but still it's easily rectified.

The simple way to fix this is to remove all single-skill monster forms. Dullahan is just the form that has it the toughest because it has ALL(!!) skills leading to single-skill monster forms.

That's what I got from your thread, and it's a good idea.

  1. What do you think the min/max required skills should be?
  2. How many collisions in required skills are acceptable for any two forms, out of the total number of required skills?


The reason why many monster forms are unstable is because single-skill monster forms easily meet the check conditions, and cause a transformation to that form, when a form-maintain skills are misaligned due to absorbing new skills.

How can the misalignment issue be alleviated?

Also what do you all think about forms that have broad skill requirements within a limited set of monster parts? Like:

Dullahan
Arm - skill 1 | skill 2 | skill 3
Leg - skill 4 | skill 5 | skill 6
Magic - skill 7 | skill 8 | skill 9

Note that the pipe character | is programmer shorthand for "or".

I think this will stabilize a form, or maybe make it easier to reach. If that's the case then more powerful and higher end forms (especially those with higher HP requirements) should be as such, provided they are gated by at least 1 set of skills only found in tough boss fights or high BR enemies, like Maelstrom or Magnetic Storm for Kraken.

Something I just thought of: this can allow me to consolidate forms, freeing up entries in this table for more monster forms. Thoughts?
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a bazinga.

User Info: tiornys

tiornys
1 month ago#7
MysticLord posted...
Does it start going backwards from where it last was, or from where your max HP qualified you to start?

In that case, you are right - putting forms that are harder to qualify earlier in each section (likely organized on BR, roughly) and easier to qualify forms later would fix that.
Functionally there's no difference, although it's my understanding that the game actually goes backwards from the end of the list. In this scenario, until you get to the starting HP point you've already failed to qualify for everything so for convenience you can start from where your max HP qualified you and go backwards.

I'd recommend having single skill forms at the end of their sections on the table. That way the single skill forms don't block the more complex forms, but instead act as fallback options.
(edited 1 month ago)
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