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User Info: ZozmaSage

ZozmaSage
1 month ago#11
I'm surprised people took to Emelia's so well. I've been mulling over making a post for a while now as to how bat s*** insane it is and how little sense it makes.

User Info: fiyeroatheart

fiyeroatheart
1 month ago#12
ZozmaSage posted...
I'm surprised people took to Emelia's so well. I've been mulling over making a post for a while now as to how bat s*** insane it is and how little sense it makes.
Like i get what you mean, but i think because this is a SaGa game most of us don't expect a traditional or "well explained" story...lmfao.

I think the reason some of us like Emelia's story is because it's very "typical revenge/romance story: Hot chick out to avenge her true love who she was wrongfully accused of murdering"

It plays like a lifetime movie, and makes about as much sense as a lifetime movie.....but lifetime still be poppin' out movies left and right.
Currently Playing: Saga Frontier Remastered (Switch), Trails of Cold Steel 4 (Switch)

User Info: ZozmaSage

ZozmaSage
1 month ago#13
I'm saying I think Emelia's scenario is bananas even by the low standard we set for Saga. Like, the core premise is fine. It's a Charlie's Angels pastiche. But there's no connective tissue or real world building there, which are things the other scenarios are at least serviceable with. And a lot of what goes on just doesn't make any sense, even with the extra context Fuse's scenario provides.

Why does Joker attack Emelia when he's just Ren in a mask, as Fuse's story demonstrates? Where does Ren get a clone of himself? Why did Ren implicate Joker in his murder? How does Roufas get Emelia to Koorong from what appears to be Shrike? Why did Roufas think Emelia was a good prospective agent in the first place, to the point that he was willing to send two of his other agents into the supposedly inescapable Despair in order to break her out?

Why does Emelia need to participate in the masked martial arts tournament if all they're doing is scouting out Joker? Why is Emelia interested in meeting a "masked prince" when her main drive is seeking revenge for her very recently deceased fiance? Why is Joker in Shingrow in the first place; is he meeting with Black X?

Sending Emelia to Baccarat in a bunny costume makes sense, but nothing comes of it; why design it so she just sees Joker go up a flight of stairs instead of talking up the other employees? WTF does Joker need money for? How was he able to get access to gold but not money? Why does Joker choose to trade gold with mythical sewer gnomes rather than Nelson smugglers? How does Joker train a gigantic monster? How was he able to get said monster in the sewer beneath a giant hotel? Why was he willing to sic that monster on Emelia when he's Ren wearing a mask?

What could Trinity, the defacto political and economic power of the world, possibly want from Joker in exchange for information on Cube, their "best kept secret." Also, wtf is cube? It's an energy source? Why would Joker need an energy source; his gimmick is pet monsters. Ren says he wants Cube to control the criminal underworld. How tf does that make any sense? Does the criminal underworld have steep electricity bills?A Why does Roufas forbid Liza and Annie from extracting Emelia? Extracting Emelia was always part of the plan; they sent her to get f***ing information, it doesn't make sense to just leave her there. How does Emelia escape from Trinity Base? Does she teleport with the power of light cursing? Asellus has an optional explanation, admittedly, but we didn't have one for decades.

It should be noted that Emelia has yet to ever successfully gather information by this point, which is ostensibly the entire reason she gets dressed up and sent on these missions. She finally manages to succeed, at least a little, with Mondo. Mondo tells her Cube is in Yorkland. Why would Trinity keep its best kept secret (and an energy generator) in a swamp in hick town? When the base is under attack the speaker says it's losing control of cube energy, so why does Emelia still think Cube is in Yorkland? Clearly it's in Trinity Base. Or does Emelia think they just use a really long extension cord? Why do they use that fiction trope where the noise keeps Emelia from hearing Mondo's name? She doesn't have any context for the name so it means nothing to her, and Roufas tells her all about him like two minutes later. Also he mentions that they forgot to pick her up from Trinity Base on her last mission. Is Gradius a super secret vigilante organization or a half-assed after-school club?

Why did SE use a monster inspired by Hindu myth as the final boss in a distinctly Christian-styled church? Why did Joker have Diva attack Gradius when, again, he's just Ren in a mask? How was Joker able to get the compliance of something like Diva in the first place? She uses tools so she's not just a dumb animal. Why does Emelia's scenario give you the "bad ending" for beating the boss in Baccarat when that signals Emelia's commitment to Ren, getting revenge on Joker, and moving closer to discovering who Ren is?

I'm not really a fan of the "nitpick plot holes" style of critique (and some of these are nitpicks), but I think it's pretty clear that there's not a whole lot holding Emelia's story together. I think the reason people like it the way they do is because of the core premise (which again, is fine), and that because the characters actually talk about things other than the plot, which doesn't really happen much in the other scenarios.
ZozmaSage posted...
Why does Joker attack Emelia when he's just Ren in a mask, as Fuse's story demonstrates?

If you do the "Confront Yaruto" route in the Emilia casefile, it's made blatantly obvious that the Joker mask is a Living object, and able to impel its will upon the wearer. (The pleading of the mask to not be flung in the fire, separate from Ren's body, makes this very apparent.)

ZozmaSage posted...
Why does Emelia's scenario give you the "bad ending" for beating the boss in Baccarat when that signals Emelia's commitment to Ren, getting revenge on Joker, and moving closer to discovering who Ren is?

I believe the interpretation is that she finds the Purple Eye and concludes that Ren is definitely dead, and makes her dead-set on revenge. This prevents her from being open to hearing Ren trying to break free from control of the mask.

Hell if I know why she arbitrarily knows about the Cube, why Diva attacks them in the wedding chapel, or if Mondo is merely lying to Joker when he tells him to check Yorkland. There IS a lot that just...sort of happens and doesn't make any sense at all.
*Casts Doom on everything* You all must now feel the pain that I have felt...DIE!
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: atma6

atma6
1 month ago#15
ZozmaSage posted...
I'm saying I think Emelia's scenario is bananas even by the low standard we set for Saga. Like, the core premise is fine. It's a Charlie's Angels pastiche. But there's no connective tissue or real world building there, which are things the other scenarios are at least serviceable with. And a lot of what goes on just doesn't make any sense, even with the extra context Fuse's scenario provides.

Why does Joker attack Emelia when he's just Ren in a mask, as Fuse's story demonstrates? Where does Ren get a clone of himself? Why did Ren implicate Joker in his murder? How does Roufas get Emelia to Koorong from what appears to be Shrike? Why did Roufas think Emelia was a good prospective agent in the first place, to the point that he was willing to send two of his other agents into the supposedly inescapable Despair in order to break her out?

Why does Emelia need to participate in the masked martial arts tournament if all they're doing is scouting out Joker? Why is Emelia interested in meeting a "masked prince" when her main drive is seeking revenge for her very recently deceased fiance? Why is Joker in Shingrow in the first place; is he meeting with Black X?

Sending Emelia to Baccarat in a bunny costume makes sense, but nothing comes of it; why design it so she just sees Joker go up a flight of stairs instead of talking up the other employees? WTF does Joker need money for? How was he able to get access to gold but not money? Why does Joker choose to trade gold with mythical sewer gnomes rather than Nelson smugglers? How does Joker train a gigantic monster? How was he able to get said monster in the sewer beneath a giant hotel? Why was he willing to sic that monster on Emelia when he's Ren wearing a mask?

What could Trinity, the defacto political and economic power of the world, possibly want from Joker in exchange for information on Cube, their "best kept secret." Also, wtf is cube? It's an energy source? Why would Joker need an energy source; his gimmick is pet monsters. Ren says he wants Cube to control the criminal underworld. How tf does that make any sense? Does the criminal underworld have steep electricity bills?A Why does Roufas forbid Liza and Annie from extracting Emelia? Extracting Emelia was always part of the plan; they sent her to get f***ing information, it doesn't make sense to just leave her there. How does Emelia escape from Trinity Base? Does she teleport with the power of light cursing? Asellus has an optional explanation, admittedly, but we didn't have one for decades.

It should be noted that Emelia has yet to ever successfully gather information by this point, which is ostensibly the entire reason she gets dressed up and sent on these missions. She finally manages to succeed, at least a little, with Mondo. Mondo tells her Cube is in Yorkland. Why would Trinity keep its best kept secret (and an energy generator) in a swamp in hick town? When the base is under attack the speaker says it's losing control of cube energy, so why does Emelia still think Cube is in Yorkland? Clearly it's in Trinity Base. Or does Emelia think they just use a really long extension cord? Why do they use that fiction trope where the noise keeps Emelia from hearing Mondo's name? She doesn't have any context for the name so it means nothing to her, and Roufas tells her all about him like two minutes later. Also he mentions that they forgot to pick her up from Trinity Base on her last mission. Is Gradius a super secret vigilante organization or a half-assed after-school club?

Why did SE use a monster inspired by Hindu myth as the final boss in a distinctly Christian-styled church? Why did Joker have Diva attack Gradius when, again, he's just Ren in a mask? How was Joker able to get the compliance of something like Diva in the first place? She uses tools so she's not just a dumb animal. Why does Emelia's scenario give you the "bad ending" for beating the boss in Baccarat when that signals Emelia's commitment to Ren, getting revenge on Joker, and moving closer to discovering who Ren is?

I'm not really a fan of the "nitpick plot holes" style of critique (and some of these are nitpicks), but I think it's pretty clear that there's not a whole lot holding Emelia's story together. I think the reason people like it the way they do is because of the core premise (which again, is fine), and that because the characters actually talk about things other than the plot, which doesn't really happen much in the other scenarios.

Nitpicking SaGa games, which have really bad plots (except SaGa Frontier 2 and I'll die on that hill) is pointless. Nevertheless, love literally all of your points.
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: grimff

grimff
1 month ago#16
#1 Asellus - Her story felt very disjointed to me, but I still enjoyed it. The theme I thought was very strong, A story about a strong female overcoming a powerful male figure, who literally treats women as his property. It feels like the message was that woman are strong, and they should'nt let men dictate how they live. Normally I think a lot of female empowerment stuff is really dumb and hamfisted, but I thought it was done really well here.

The ending I got was kind of troll cause I felt like Gina wasn't developed enough to suddenly be important at the end. If she was developed I think it would have been cool but yeah.. also the weird 3d model group photo thing was really silly and made me laugh.

#2 T260g - I played his scenario a few years ago so i might be remembering him wrong, but I just remember it being a cute story about a friendship between a kid and his robot, felt like something out of a pixar or disney movie. Idk I like stuff like that.

#3 Emelia - Also played a while ago and I just remember her story was weird af and being confused, but yeah I like weird and cryptic s*** so I thought it was cool.

#4 Rikki - Very simple and straightforward story, not much to say about this one. I thought it was average.

#5 Red - This probably has the most fleshed out story? Idk I didn't think it was as strong a theme as assellus' and I didn't like it much. It was basically just a revenge story and there wasn't much going on other than that. The part where shuzer says I have your dads brain was dumb cause when you kill him red has no reaction whatsoever to it. Also there was a part which was really dumb where you beat brava or whatever his name is and the whole shingrow palace blows up suddenly, and you can only assume that everyone inside died but no one says anything about it. It just felt very un super hero'y, and like I was playing as a sociopath. Maybe that was the point and that was intentional by the developers but it just sucked. Idk it just felt like I was playing a really s***ty superhero who never redeems himself at all. It made sense that alkarl took his powers away, as he definitely didn't deserve them.

Maybe the moral of the story was.. Revenge and feelings of resentment are wrong? That we shouldn't let our actions be driven by personal grudges? I don't know..

The only part I liked was the ending cause it was kinda twisty m night shamalan style.

I haven't played blue's scenario yet so can't rank him but if i had to guess id probably rank it above Rikki and below emelia.
(edited 1 month ago)
OK OK, I'll bite lol;

Why is Emelia interested in meeting a "masked prince" when her main drive is seeking revenge for her very recently deceased fiance?

To be fair man, I think this was just an offhand comment by Emelia to lighten her own spirits to cope with the strange situation she found herself in, and not her like, literally wanting to find and abscond with a masked prince.

What could Trinity, the defacto political and economic power of the world, possibly want from Joker in exchange for information on Cube, their "best kept secret."

I figure an ancient mask that possesses people might be an interesting source of information on all sorts of things in exchange for drip feeding information on Cube.

Why did Roufas think Emelia was a good prospective agent in the first place, to the point that he was willing to send two of his other agents into the supposedly inescapable Despair in order to break her out? How does Roufas get Emelia to Koorong from what appears to be Shrike?

As long as they're willing to train her up (which they are), she's a great recruit; she has a personal connection to a person/thing of interest to Gradius, and being fresh out of jail, a widow (as far as they know), and no other prospects except for them. This is exactly how real life organizations like that (benign like Gradius, or less benign organizations) recruit, they recruit people with literally no other options. This is why if you refuse their offer, Emelia says straight up something to the effect of 'now what?' and has literally no other prospects and you can't proceed until you accept. Even if Emelia, a formal supermodel with a legal pardon could get a different job and a new lease on life, she doesn't feel that way. So she joins up.

As far as the second question, I mean, a ship, right? The IRPO doesn't really seem to be looking for her, regardless, and even so, she has a legal pardon. Fuse doesn't need to know about it.

Where does Ren get a clone of himself?

According to Essence, he commissioned the Bio Research Lab.

Why does Joker choose to trade gold with mythical sewer gnomes rather than Nelson smugglers? WTF does Joker need money for?

Nelson smugglers simply just have gold. The Gnomes are mega rich and have TONS of gold and money.

Who, or even what (given that this is saga) doesn't need money?

Why would Trinity keep its best kept secret (and an energy generator) in a swamp in hick town?

You just answered your own question, a swamp in a hick town is probably literally the last place most people would look.

When the base is under attack the speaker says it's losing control of cube energy, so why does Emelia still think Cube is in Yorkland? Clearly it's in Trinity Base. Also, wtf is cube? It's an energy source?

'Cube Energy' could merely be a system or something derived from Cube and not the actual object. For all we know, they could extract Cube Energy from Yorkland and ship it to Trinity installations around the Regions. That's what I'd do if I were able, rather than having this mythical ancient object powering one place at a time. And yeah, it is an energy source.
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: Lymmea

Lymmea
1 month ago#18
ZozmaSage posted...
Why did Roufas think Emelia was a good prospective agent in the first place, to the point that he was willing to send two of his other agents into the supposedly inescapable Despair in order to break her out?

As I understand, it's implied in-game that Roufas is the person who escaped Despair before, so at least he wouldn't be worried about sending Annie and Liza in with his own advice for how to escape. As for why Roufas wanted Emilia as an agent in the first place...I really couldn't say. He might not have wanted her specifically so much as he was just looking for any likely candidates, and someone the law had screwed over would be a good fit for an underground resistance organization. So Emilia may theoretically have been one of any number of prospects Roufas was scouting at the time, and wasn't some super special case.

ZozmaSage posted...
Why does Emelia need to participate in the masked martial arts tournament if all they're doing is scouting out Joker? Why is Emelia interested in meeting a "masked prince" when her main drive is seeking revenge for her very recently deceased fiance?

My theory on the first thing is that having her join gave her a pretext for being there, and also for going into places (like the arena) that would otherwise be closed off. As for the second part, I personally read it as Emilia making an excuse to Roufas for her eagerness to go. I'm not too clear on whether or not Roufas actually knows (or if Emilia knows he knows) that Joker is supposedly responsible for Ren's death, and that Emilia is seeking revenge on Joker. But if he doesn't know, or Emilia thinks he doesn't know, then she might have been playing her cards close to her chest, not wanting to let Roufas know her personal stake in chasing Joker. If he found out, Roufas might have (not unreasonable) concerns that Emilia might prioritize her revenge over Gradius' interests, and reconsider sending her, so Emilia might recognize that and want to avoid telling him.

(Mind you, it's possible Roufas knows and that Emilia knows he knows. I'm only partway through her scenario right now, so I can't confirm this. But that's how it initially read to me - Emilia pretending her interest in going to Shingrow was more frivolous than it actually was. As you said, this is a woman out for revenge.)

ZozmaSage posted...
Also, wtf is cube? It's an energy source?

From what I remember from talks about things that got left on the cutting room floor re: SaGa Frontier, Cube was originally going to be a way of warping between regions. Originally, everyone was essentially going to have a version of Blue's RegionMap, and that would have been Cube. So it was going to be some immensely powerful thing that helped connect all the regions, and that every character had access to...so, most likely, villains wanting to ~control Cube~ meant that they wanted to either harness the amount of power it had, or take control of its functions. Being able to hold, say, people's ability to traverse the regions essentially for ransom would be a hell of a villain power play. That's what I vaguely know of Cube plus some heavy speculation from me, though.

In any case, references to Cube in SaGa are remnants of a larger piece of cut content, so it's not surprising they're confusing and contextless. The literal context that brings it all together doesn't exist within the game. What I wonder is why they didn't excise Cube from the dialogue of Emilia's scenario. It's not exactly brought up much, so it doesn't feel like it would have taken that long to rewrite a few dialogue boxes...I get the feeling it just got missed.

It really is absolutely out of nowhere in the game, though, and thus far Emilia's scenario has been most egregious about it out of the ones I've played. Emilia just goes "what is Cube?" to Roufas at one point, apropos of nothing, and we as players are like "yeah, what is Cube, since literally no one has mentioned it before???"
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User Info: LordFuzzi

LordFuzzi
1 month ago#19
I haven't played Emelia's, currently on Lute (I love the totally whimsical character he is and the totally lackadaisical nature of his chapter, but boy it's bare).

I won't comment on Emelia's but honestly, Riki's feels the most put-together and doesn't ever really hang in that awkward spot, but Red's got the most actual story and involvement so far. Blue has barely anything, T260G is pretty monotone (although it's really all about Gen there), and Asellus is missing a lot of fluffy purple prose that would have really elevated it; as is, I really love deeply the content it dapples in. But it only ever dapples, and it leaves so much to be desired. Like five or ten more cutscenes establishing more character, a day or two in the Chateau to really establish Asellus not wanting to fall into their cycles, and giving Ildon and White Rose A) reason to like her enough to side with her and B) reason enough for her to like them. It was all very incomplete and suffered for it.

Of course, Riki's ring story is not very deep but it is very fleshed out in that you go to every ring and is constantly giving him catered scenes for them, to an end point; Red's is very simple too but it covers a good range of notes, even if in a cliche way.

I also haven't done any Fuse stuff but it seems very side-story-y.
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: HopesPeak

HopesPeak
1 month ago#20


Nitpicking SaGa games, which have really bad plots (except SaGa Frontier 2 and I'll die on that hill) is pointless. Nevertheless, love literally all of your points.

Are SaGa stories really that bad? I just view SaGa plots the same exact way that I view Dark Souls plots. They don't actually have plots, they more or less have plot-points that read like a cliffsnotes version of your grander journey. The real story is your gameplay, & the trials & tribulations you went through to get from point A to point B.

I don't like Saga Frontier 2's plot at all. I was invested in the Gustave plot, but I always quit the game shortly after his final quest coz I didn't care about Will Knights or The Egg at all.
I vastly prefer the typical SaGa plot over SF2's, coz the plot in a normal SaGa game is just a guidepost, directing to you on the general location that one should take.

It seems that's also what Squaresoft intended for most of their Jrpgs, just judging from Miwa's (the chick who wrote Asellus's story.) comments about her time working with Square.
http://videogamin.squarehaven.com/people/Miwa_Shoda
But when I was told that RPGs don’t need storylines, I was really shocked. They said players weren’t after a storyline, so the bare minimum of events would suffice.
Square Enix/freelance scenario writer Miwa Shoda on her Twitter account.1

I agree with this somewhat, coz it's the main reason that I'm so addicted to Square's SaGa games. I play them for the exploration & journey. I do need a storyline to work as a guidepost, similar to how plots usually functions in a Elder Scrolls game, but for the most part I'd like the plot to be as sparse as possible so I can carve my own adventure around the themes that the scenario is going for.

I vastly preferred Asellus's plot, as sparse as it is, coz it seemed to be going for a Revolutionary Girl Utena vibe, mixed with some kind of Lady Scorpion Meiko Kaji movie.

Of the SF1 plots.
My ranking of them would be
No1. Asellus
No2. T260
No3 Red, only due to how unique his scenario is.
Actually all 3 of them have very unique scenarios. Although T260 & Red kinda share similarities with Akira & Cube from LiveALive, another Squaresoft rpg.

No.4 Riki, come on, his story is like a mix of Dragon Ball & Lord of the Rings, what's not to love?
No.5 Blue, his story is friggin twisted and ironic. Kinda comes off like one of those Akira Kurosawa movies due to how expendable Blue is, by his own people.

I don't really care about the others. Emilia has that whole Charlie's Angels gag going on.
Lute didn't have story, although I actually like his expanded plot during the Fuse Case.
I can't really give it to Lute though since Lute's Fuse Case revolves around Gen instead of Lute, lol!

If I were to grade the Fuse Case expansions.
Lute would be No.1
I guess T260g would be No.2 since Fuse's case didn't really change the T260 plot at all.
no.3 would be Red since his ending is just some funny gag, where he gets recruited to be Fuse's intern.
I would've gave Emilia a tie with Red, but then I recall that 'LOLWTF?' crap going on with Ren.
It's nice that Blue/Rouge got a happy ending during Fuse's case, but I actually preferred the original ending.

Asellus's ending, I felt was more of an origin story for Fuse and didn't really add anything to Asellus, other than her finally getting her girl back, much sooner than she normally did during the original game.

Riki's Fuse ending barely changed, they made Mei-ling less likable I guess.

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