This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

You're browsing the GameFAQs Message Boards as a guest. Sign Up for free (or Log In if you already have an account) to be able to post messages, change how messages are displayed, and view media in posts.
This topic contains spoilers - you can click, tap, or highlight to reveal them

User Info: manmouse

manmouse
2 months ago#21
As one addition, let’s also not forget that Reeve infiltrates your party under the guise of a fortune-telling robotic cat who wears a crown and a cape, and beats people with a megaphone while riding on the back of a morbidly obese moogle, and yet somehow people get hung up on the idea of a dress and a wig as being a ridiculous disguise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b18HMqJW5A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt1-XWiMveY
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: Peter_19

Peter_19
2 months ago#22
manmouse posted...
As one addition, let’s also not forget that Reeve infiltrates your party under the guise of a fortune-telling robotic cat who wears a crown and a cape, and beats people with a megaphone while riding on the back of a morbidly obese moogle, and yet somehow people get hung up on the idea of a dress and a wig as being a ridiculous disguise.

The thing that I feel a bit uncomfortable about regarding the whole "cross-dressing Cloud" controversy is that some people seem offended simply from the fact that the game jokes around a bit in a light-hearted way, and it's not good when something becomes so sacred that you cannot even joke about it.
And besides, the game jokes about homosexual men as well when Cloud visits the Honeybee Inn, so cross-dressers aren't singled out.
Sure, the way that the game portrays homosexual men during that part might be a bit inappropriate, but that whole place is so ridiculous and over-the-top that you cannot really take anything seriously there anyway.

I don't really see any malicious intents anywhere in that part of the game - the owner of the clothing shop even agreed to make some female clothes for Cloud with no problem at all, in fact pretty much everyone in Wall Market seems to try to help Cloud get the stuff that he needs.
They never say that cross-dressers are inferior (which would have been much more offensive), they just fool around a bit and surprise the player with something totally unexpected (I don't think any other game up until then has had a tough-looking cynical guy dress like a pretty girl).
...OR at least, that's what I think.
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: Crashrfc

Crashrfc
2 months ago#23
Peter_19 posted...
I don't see any problem with the cross-dressing part in this game.


So you don't agree that it was done purely for comedy? I mean I personally don't care, but I can have the common sense to see that it would be problematic in 2019.

User Info: loseless

loseless
2 months ago#24
Look, I am not offended. I still laugh today when I play it. But I realize it is a stupid idea that the developers used for laughs and that's it.

Characters in games are not living entities. They do and say what they are programmed to. Cloud dressed in drag because the writers wanted that and created a scenario that fit that goal. They could as well have created a dozen different, more logical scenarios. But FF7 was created with a strong comedic tone to it.

This, in FR8, for instance, would be inconceivable, as it is a more grounded reality. There's a difference between realism and verisimilitude. And then there's inner logic and staying true to character. This specific part of the game isn't any of these things. Cloud would never do such a dumb thing, it is completely out of character, it makes no sense whatsoever and it is absolutely forced so comedy could be injected into this.

And from an aesthetic point of view, FF7 added a lot of silly comedy to lighten the mood, as the game is pretty tragic and dark. If one were to chart the progression of events in this game, with highs and lows in a 2D graphic, we would pretty much have a zig-zag pattern, as the game has a low moment, followed by a light moment, followed by an heavy moment, followed by something silly, followed by a tragedy, followed by jokes. It has an overall negative progression, but it tries to add as much fun and jokes, especially in towns and dialogue, so the player doesn't get too immersed in the dark overtone. It is quite well constructed. But the kind of comedy used was not always suitable, don't always check the verisimilitude box.

User Info: EpsteinBarr

EpsteinBarr
2 months ago#25
loseless posted...
Anyway who thinks cross-dressing is a good way of bypassing security to enter some premisses, I got an advice: do not pursue a writing, directing or journalism career.

The developers did that for the lulz. There's no valid reason for it. There were six private guards. Cloud single-handedly beat more Shinra soldiers than that hours before. With Aeris having his back he could have taken them easily. The plan was stupid and dumb.

And before anyone tries to spin this as a rational action in any way, shape or form, minutes before cross-dressing, Cloud goes into a brothel and either gets in a hot tub with half a dozen muscular, naked, 80s porn moustache guys.

No, there's no pretence here. The developers just wanted to do some ridiculous for the laughs. And I shake my head and sigh, but don't try to give me "it was the only thing that made sense" in a sequence where NOTHING made sense.


Well he did it so he wouldn’t put Tifa’s life at risk by creating too much of a commotion. Then again, she could have single handedly beat them without much effort.

User Info: Crashrfc

Crashrfc
2 months ago#26
EpsteinBarr posted...
Well he did it so he wouldn’t put Tifa’s life at risk by creating too much of a commotion. Then again, she could have single handedly beat them without much effort.


The point is they created that scenario to justify the cross-dressing. They didn't go..."ok we've got Tifa undercover in a red light don mansion, I know! Let's have Cloud infiltrate by dressing up as a girl". That whole section of the game evolved from the idea of dressing Cloud up in a wig and a dress.

User Info: manmouse

manmouse
2 months ago#27
There are two more things to unpack here...

1.) The idea that “Cloud would never do that!” needs to be addressed. For one, the fact that he’s averse to the idea and only does so under pressure from Aeris actually serves to characterize him in a couple ways. For one, it helps establish his dynamic with Aeris. That whole segment from when you first meet her until the mansion is all about showing her pushing him far out of his comfort zone. You see the pseudo-stoic Cloud with his newly formed mercenary persona being pushed by her to live a little less uptight. But beyond that, it also helps characterize the real Cloud, as someone who may want to be this cold stoic loner, but in his true nature he kinda seeks the approval of strong women (just like when we see the truth of his childhood with Tifa in the late game).

2.) People’s negative reactions to the drag scene, whether they feel disgust or shame for Cloud and his actions, says quite a lot about how we view masculinity and femininity as constructs.

When a woman wears clothing associated with men, takes interest in sports/hobbies we associate as masculine, works a job that is traditionally worked by men, or displays skill or strength that would be seen as masculine, it’s often seen as an improvement, a step “upwards”, like she’s more desirable as a “cool” girl. Even if not viewed as positive, it’s still viewed as default, neutral, something that’s inoffensive and societally welcome.

But men who work jobs associated with women (nursing, childcare, fashion, decorating, etc), who take interest in softer or cuter aesthetics, who have skills associated with womanhood (sewing, crafting, hair/skin care/hygiene, floral gardening), or as is very relevant here: men who put on clothing or hair styles associated with womanhood, all of the above are often treated by our society as being “lesser”, inadequate, degrading, embarrassing, or even freakish compared to the conforming narrow image of manhood.

This is simply because we see womanhood and femininity as being inherently lower than masculinity.
How would we feel if Aeris donned a Santa beard, a flannel shirt, heavy jeans, and a bald cap in order to sneak into a place disguised as a man? Would anyone feel embarrassed to be seen playing that part? Would we feel like Aeris degraded herself? Would we feel like she’s any less of a woman for putting on the disguise?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b18HMqJW5A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt1-XWiMveY

User Info: Peter_19

Peter_19
2 months ago#28
manmouse posted...
When a woman wears clothing associated with men, takes interest in sports/hobbies we associate as masculine, works a job that is traditionally worked by men, or displays skill or strength that would be seen as masculine, it’s often seen as an improvement, a step “upwards”, like she’s more desirable as a “cool” girl. Even if not viewed as positive, it’s still viewed as default, neutral, something that’s inoffensive and societally welcome.

One example of this type of situation is when some people started insisting that the "Women" sign on restrooms did not actually depict a woman in a dress, but actually depicted her in a Supergirl costume.

My first reaction to this was "so it's considered weak to wear female clothes?".

I have also noticed that when I tell radical feminists that some of the girls in my university class are "girly" then that's considered an insult.
And interestingly enough, it has been the girls themselves who have called each other "girly".
I remember when a couple 20-year-old girls were doing each other's hair right before a lecture some time in 2010 or so when I was studying courses that I needed for my current Engineering Physics program (which I started a few years after that), and one of them literally giggled and said to her guy friends "yeah, we are being all girly here".

Another example of girls who are comfortable with their femininity are the Spice Girls members;
the most obvious example is Baby Spice, who is super-girly in every possible way, and she thought of that as a strength.
...OR at least, that's what I think.
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: loseless

loseless
2 months ago#29
Ah, a social sciences major. We unfortunately don't see nearly enough of them on the internet these days.

The social construction of gender is a moot question here. I care not for the fact that is a male dressing as a female, since the opposite would have garnered the same reaction: it is a stupid idea to cross-dress as to avoid security. The argument that it worked, therefore it was right is also an invalid one. It worked because the writers deemed it so. It has no inner logic nor makes sense in any regard.

It was a stupid idea, played for laughs. Putting any more meaning into it is reading significance where there is none. The absurd is funny. Developers wanted something funny. Cross-dressing a serious, cold introvert is a funny concept. Therefore they did it 'cause it was fun. There's no meaning besides this point. They could have written a dozen better scenarios that involved Cloud and Aeris rescuing Tifa. They chose this one because it was funny.

You know where else cross-dressing comes up? In FFV. And it is also stupid. But the whole game bathes in dumb, silly humour, so its pretty much shaken off as just another quirky FFV moment. Does it matter that it was a girl dressed as a boy? No. It would have been just as stupid if it were a person dressed as an animal, a dwarf dressed as a human, a moggle dressed as a chocobo or a white person posing as a black/yellow/green/purple person. It makes no sense and it is not believable. But is not supposed to be believable. It is supposed to be funny. And it mostly delivers, so mission accomplished. Just don't tell me that is something completely rational and consistent.
#30
(message deleted)