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User Info: simondrake

simondrake
1 month ago#1
This thread is a catch-all place to discuss the game concepts raised during the riddles in Guess The Thing.

In the last few riddles we've had a few rare concepts brought up that people have wanted to discuss but didn't want to derail the main riddle thread about it.
- There's a single dialog box where Red XIII is called "Red" before you get to name him
- There's a guy on the curb in the opening cutscene that looks a bit like Zack (Not much but it's a running joke that he's supposed to be Zack)
- Robot enemies have a unique death animation where they shatter - why?

So on the topic of the robots having a unique death animation, DynamixDJ pointed out:
"there are quite a few enemies that have Actions stored on them in the same way as Attacks, and when they die the AI script manually disables the normal death animation to play out the custom animation (like with Turks, Rufus, Warning Board). The action they used is usually called (Vanish)."
Which is the case for most enemies with a 'platform' like Mu. But it's not listed as a custom animation or Death Counter Attack on either Terrance's guide or on FFWikia. That might be because it's done in a different way.

There are a handful of enemies with another form of special death animation, Jokers and Death Dealers will spin on their vertical axis like a ballet dancer as they die. 8-Eyes melts into a puddle as it dies. This was extended in FF8 and beyond where almost enemies had an actual death animation but I think in FF7 it's only a handful.

Thoughts?
To strive, to seek, to find. And not to yield.

User Info: DynamixDJ

DynamixDJ
1 month ago#2
OK, first things first, forget about TF's AI script or the Wiki AI script. TF did a fantastic job, however, he has simplified it for the layman, and missed out quite a lot simply because it wasn't needed. This works fine for the general user, but for the coder, it's a much better option to just dissect the raw AI script itself, which is what I have been doing.

The Mu is something else altogether, and is an example of an enemy with a couterpart named [No Name], of which there are about 8 of these No Named enemies. Off the top of my head, there is one for the Mu, Trickplay, Hammer Blaster's base, Magnade's right and left arm, The helicopter in the Rufus Battle, the Van in the Pamer battle, I think that's it.

These enemies are scripted to be non-targetable and main AI script disabled. When the Mu dies, it triggers the 4020-4024 vars for [No Name] to toggle, which makes it so the the battle will end without the need to kill the no name. The same thing happens for the warning board, Rufus or Sample:H0512; when you kill the main enemy, it toggles the same vars for its counterpart, so that the battle will end without killing all enemies.

You won't see those vars mentioned in TF's script, also, TF did not work out what all of the vars are, such as Vargid Police's [2020], which is looking to see what the Battle Type is (2 = Back Attack), or Sample:H0512's [2120], which is a check to see what the Element of the last performed action is.

Going back to the custom death animation, it's important to note that the animation we are referring to is not the flashing red animation, but rather, the white-fading animation that you see with Hammer Blaster and other enemies (I'm working my way through each enemy's AI, and so far I've just escaped Midgar, so I'm learning as I go along). I made a mistake earlier; the <Vanish> animation is actually used for things like the Ghost, or Hammer Blaster when it vanished then reappears into battle. The Action for the custom death animation is actually called <(Report)> (The "<>" indicate that the Attack name is invisible).

I'm guessing that when an enemy uses its default red-death animation, the animation chosen must be hard-coded into that enemy, like killing a boss and getting the extended red-shaking default animation, or, as Simon Drake has observed, killing a robotic enemy gives the red-breaking apart default animation (which is incredible news to me, I had never considered the regular death animation before).

Codemann mentioned something about the timings of the attacks. I'm pretty sure each attack has its own "Timing" flag, see this page:

http://web.archive.org/web/20171030164019/http://wiki.qhimm.com/view/FF7/Battle/Attack_Special_Effects

This notes the timing for the Special Effects used on certain attacks, I assume that a similar timing flag will be used for other attacks (such as KOTR so that the damage displayed correlates the visual animations of the knights performing their attacks).
FFVII Walkthrough: http://www.neoseeker.com/final-fantasy-vii/faqs/1733032-dynamixdj.html
PasteBin Page: https://pastebin.com/u/DynamixDJ
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: DynamixDJ

DynamixDJ
1 month ago#3
I discovered a glitch with the Warning Board btw.

Being flagged as "alive/dead" is not the same as being flagged as "active/inactive". When either the Machine Gun or Laser Cannon spawn in, it toggles the "active" [4020] var, which it's counterpart then looks at to see that it is not supposed to spawn until the other enemy has decided to recede back into the Warning Board.

I noticed that both the MG and LC both perform a check while they are active to look at the "death" status of its counterpart and behave differently accordingly. The only thing is, once you kill either the MG or LC, the other one will not spawn back in, which leads me to believe this was a mistake; why would the check be there otherwise?

This occurs because when you kill say the LC, it will be flagged as dead, however, it will not toggle the "active" flag, so when it's MG's turn to spawn in, it will think that the LC is still active (regardless of it being dead) and will not spawn in.

I added a simple death counter which looked like this for both the MG and LC:

0x000BattleAddr(&2060).BattleAddr(&4020) <- 0
0x00ASCRIPT END


This toggled "Self's" [2060] "Active" [4020] flag to 0 upon death, which means that the other enemy will spawn in after you've killed the first, as it was intended. I was quite chuffed to see my script work tbh, not only did it mean that I had analyzed the problem correctly, but I also managed to play the game with my custom AI script loaded, which is a first for me :) I'll creating bad-ass boss AI script in no time haha
FFVII Walkthrough: http://www.neoseeker.com/final-fantasy-vii/faqs/1733032-dynamixdj.html
PasteBin Page: https://pastebin.com/u/DynamixDJ

User Info: DynamixDJ

DynamixDJ
1 month ago#4
I've been noticing quite a lot of trivial AI script things tbh, I don't know if it's worth starting a new topic for my discoveries, I think I may.

I already have a topic here for my work with the AI script, but it's not very layman-friendly:

http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=18668.0
FFVII Walkthrough: http://www.neoseeker.com/final-fantasy-vii/faqs/1733032-dynamixdj.html
PasteBin Page: https://pastebin.com/u/DynamixDJ

User Info: mled

mled
1 month ago#5
simondrake posted...
- Robot enemies have a unique death animation where they shatter - why?

Not much to discuss here, they did it because it looks cool.

It's a neat way to give some more oomph to finishing battles.

simondrake posted...
- There's a single dialog box where Red XIII is called "Red" before you get to name him

Interesting, when does that happen?
My Digital Art Website: http://digiartdigi.wix.com/artedigital

User Info: DynamixDJ

DynamixDJ
1 month ago#6
I think drake may have been asking why from a technical pov, meaning, not why did the developers decide to have custom death animations, but rather, why is the game denoting these enemies to have that custom animation; where exactly is the flag that controls this? At least, that's my "why" question.
FFVII Walkthrough: http://www.neoseeker.com/final-fantasy-vii/faqs/1733032-dynamixdj.html
PasteBin Page: https://pastebin.com/u/DynamixDJ

User Info: simondrake

simondrake
1 month ago#7
Kindof both questions of why - what's the technical implementation of the special death animation and why go to the effort of making a unique animation for robot enemies and not for other enemy types like say humans or birds.

Also depending on what is found in the code, maybe that'll shed light on the more philosophical 'why' question. It could be that there are stubs or half-written flags to represent death animations for other classes of enemies but it was never finished.

As to the Red XIII being called "Red"
https://youtu.be/XokJ1e_rRSE?list=PLBO7HwXkx1urqa2nqM38Jcbzbaj0tPR7M&t=298
It's the last dialog box before you get to input a name for him, he says "Hojo named me Red XIII but you can call me whatever you like" the box is captioned as being said by "Red", not "Red XIII" or just a nameless text box but "Red".
My theory on this is that they kept changing the characters used for his name and forgot to correct it in this one instance. In a pre-release screenshot I found on FFWikia it has the name spelled out in arabic numerals as "Red 13" https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/b/b0/Red13-prerelease-ffvii.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120824222843 but in the released Japanese version there's a single character for the number 'XIII' just to use for naming Red XIII https://youtu.be/jlVFrktbcG0?t=321 Then for the English release they spelled it out in full as "Red XIII".
The majority of the time anyone uses his name it'll be referencing the variable that you can change when you rename him, but not this one box before you name him and evidently they got it mixed up and ended up not giving any numbers at all.
To strive, to seek, to find. And not to yield.

User Info: mled

mled
1 month ago#8
simondrake posted...
Also depending on what is found in the code, maybe that'll shed light on the more philosophical 'why' question. It could be that there are stubs or half-written flags to represent death animations for other classes of enemies but it was never finished.

You're right. It was silly of me to assume no further discussion was needed...

It may have been something they were working on and never finished due to lack of time or... someone leaving the coding team during development and then no one else knowing how the animations were supposed to trigger :P

simondrake posted...
As to the Red XIII being called "Red"

Thanks for the explanation!

Usually other characters have more general description names such as "Flower girl", so it's weird that they went with "Red" for this instance. Maybe it was a placeholder that they forgot to change.
My Digital Art Website: http://digiartdigi.wix.com/artedigital

User Info: DynamixDJ

DynamixDJ
1 month ago#9
There are a number of Enemy Attack flags that I am not sure where to look (AB files apparently... wherever that is). These include:

- Attack indicated as a Berserk Attack
- Attacks that have the "Can't Cover" flag on
- Visibility of Attack name

An educated guess would say that the specific death animation used would be somewhere amongst those flags. It would be cool to find out exactly where and how we can toggle these. I would like to create a mega-boss using the Mu enemy, and I would like it to have the prolonged red-shaking animation that you get with the bosses.
FFVII Walkthrough: http://www.neoseeker.com/final-fantasy-vii/faqs/1733032-dynamixdj.html
PasteBin Page: https://pastebin.com/u/DynamixDJ
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: simondrake

simondrake
1 month ago#10
DynamixDJ, you showed me the magic of using Makou Reactor to explore the field map screens but I don't recall if I've asked for guidance on exploring the enemy code, is there a similarly helpful tool for that?
To strive, to seek, to find. And not to yield.
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