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  2. Final Fantasy VII
  3. How do the elemental summons compare to each of their spells?

User Info: Anokatax

Anokatax
2 months ago#1
Was wondering if anyone had a cleared game and could give me numbers or rankings for:

Bolt 2 vs Ramuh vs Bolt 3 vs Bolt Plume

Fire 2 vs Ifrit vs Beta vs Flamethrower ESkill vs Fire 3 vs Fire Veil vs Flare (in the Contain materia iirc)

Earth 2/3 vs Ifrit vs

Leviathan vs magic breath vs aqualung

Ice 2/3 vs Shiva vs that ice crystal item

Shadow Flare Vs Pandora Box Vs Bhmt Zero vs Ultima vs Comet 1/2?

Edit: if I missed any others, please feel free to post that, thanks!

And as a general question, how's Contain and it's forms stack up?

And does higher Magic help Attack items like Bolt Plumes?
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: DynamixDJ

DynamixDJ
2 months ago#2
OK, so the first thing to note is the fact that a damaging item will not consider the Actor's MAttack value or Lv, which means that they will always deal the same range of damage when attacking a specific enemy (damage varies depending on MDef value only.)

So, let's say you were end-game OP, and you were going to cast Fire3 against the Sea Worm (MDef = 230). Let's pretend your Lv is 80 and MAtt value is 162, your damage output would 3198 max, 2998 min (random variation will reduce the damage output by as much as [3841/4096]). Now, let's say instead that you're on Disc 1 fighting the Sea Worm casting Fire3, and are Lv 27 with MAtt value of 42. Your max damage = 912, min damage = 855.

If you throw a Fire Veil at the Sea Worm, it doesn't matter what Lv you are or what your MAtt value is, it will always deal 660 max and 618 min, seeing as the only thing that matters here is the enemy's MDef value.

Also, it's worth noting that the Mystery Ninja's Attacks are not the same as the thrown items; the Fire Veil that the MN uses does consider her Lv and MAtt (seeing as they are dedicated Attacks using the normal Magic damage formula), whereas the normal player-thrown items do not (they use a special, "Item" damaging formula).

So, the only thing now left to determine the effectiveness of each attack is the Power value. A lot of attacks have 16 Power, which indicates 1x damage. 32 Power is 2x damage, 64 Power is 4x damage, and so on and so forth.

Fire:
Flame Thrower = 14 Power
Fire2 = 20 Power
Hellfire = 27 Power
Beta = 54 Power
Phoenix Flame = 60 Power
Fire3 = 64 Power
Flare = 115 Power

Fire Fang = 60 Power
Fire Veil = 75 Power

Ice:
Ice2 = 20 Power
Diamond Dust = 24 Power
Ice3 = 64 Power
Freeze = 95 Power

Antarctic Wind = 75 Power
Ice Crystal = 130 Power

Lightning:
Bolt2 = 20 Power
Judgement Bolt = 30 Power
Trine = 34 Power
Bolt3 = 64 Power

Bolt Plume = 26 Power
Swift Bolt = 75 Power

Earth:
Quake2 = 24 Power
Anger Of The Land = 33 Power
Quake3 = 70 Power
Break = 100 Power

Earth Drum = 40 Power
Earth Mallet = 160 Power

Poison
Bio2 = 21 Power
Bio3 = 68 Power

Deadly Waste = 6 Power
MTentacles = 150 Power

Water:
Aqualung = 52 Power
Tidal Wave = 75 Power

Dragon Scales = 230 Power

Wind
Tornado = 105 Power

Bird Wing = 65 Power

Holy:
Judgement = 120 Power

And, to answer your last question regarding the powerful (non-elemental) Magical attacks:

Comet2 = 30 Power (x4 hits)
Comet = 80 Power
Pandora's Box = 60 Power (Ignores enemy Def, which can boost damage considerably)
Magic Breath = 77 Power
Ultima = 105 Power
Disintegration = 110 Power (Ignores enemy Def, which can boost damage considerably)
Tera Flare = 120 Power (Ignores enemy Def, which can boost damage considerably)
Shadow Flare = 125 Power

One last thing to note. The Magical formula for normal magic attacks looks like this:

Damage = (Power / 16) * ([Level + MAttack] * 6)

The Item formula looks like this:

Damage = Power * 16

To throw the enemy's MDef value into the equation, you take the calculated value, and you go:

Damage = [Damage * (512 - MDef)] / 512

You have now calculated the max value the damage output can be (remember to round the final figure down, always). To calculate the min damage accounting for rnd var, take the max damage figure and go:

Damage = (Damage * 3841) / 4096
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User Info: DynamixDJ

DynamixDJ
2 months ago#3
All of this info was compiled using my FFVII Enemy Database and Calculator:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8OpCQuDA-lKZkN5cVdYbXA1OFk
FFVII Walkthrough: http://www.neoseeker.com/final-fantasy-vii/faqs/1733032-dynamixdj.html
PasteBin Page: https://pastebin.com/u/DynamixDJ

User Info: Anokatax

Anokatax
2 months ago#4
Thanks! Magic breath is non elemental?

User Info: DynamixDJ

DynamixDJ
2 months ago#5
No, sorry, Magic Breath is multi-elemental (Fire/Ice/Lightning). I meant to mention that aswell, but it skipped my mind lol
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User Info: Anokatax

Anokatax
2 months ago#6
Does Fire2 = Ice2 then? And in power, does 3 Fire2s equal a Phoenix Flame then for example?

Thanks again.

User Info: Automaton539

Automaton539
2 months ago#7
Anokatax posted...
Does Fire2 = Ice2 then? And in power, does 3 Fire2s equal a Phoenix Flame then for example?

Thanks again.


Yes, fire/ice etc of the same level do the same amount of potential damage, it just depends what you're using it on and who you're using it with. ie someone with a higher M-Att will do more with ice2, for example, than someone with a lower M-Att, and using it on an enemy with a resistance to ice will lower the damage. But the potential damage output on each level of spells is the same, and as for if 3 fire2 is the same as 1 pheonix, while technicaly yes, the output will vary widely as you're using three spells instead of one, so for each use the damage calc happens independantly, so from a purely MP basis using lower level spells more will in the end mean more dmg output for the same mana usage, the question is then whether a longer battle is wirth it to sustain mp, considering the extra drain it would have on hp. same as 5 fire1 would equal a single fire2 but use 2mp less.

User Info: Automaton539

Automaton539
2 months ago#8
It's the same with healing spells.

Cure 1 is better when used outside of battle as it will do more healing with a lower mp consumption, but in battle you will generally need the higher hp restoration of cure2 (towards mid/end game at the very least.) as the enemies will be hitting harder than you can restore even with a constant stream of cure1.

User Info: DynamixDJ

DynamixDJ
2 months ago#9
Automaton539 posted...
But the potential damage output on each level of spells is the same, and as for if 3 fire2 is the same as 1 pheonix, while technicaly yes, the output will vary widely as you're using three spells instead of one

I'm not 100% sure there would be much variation tbh...

Let's say we had 100 MAtt and were Lv 50 against Jenova-Death (320 MDef).

(60 / 16) * ([100 + 50] * 6)
(3.75) * (150 * 6)
3.75 * 900 = 3375

(3375 * (512 - 320)) / 512
(3375 * 192) / 512
648000 / 512 = 1265

Phoenix Flame would deal a max damage of 1265, but it would only have a 1/256 chance it would hit that figure, and conversely, it would also have a 1/256 chance of hitting the minimum figure of 1186.

So, let's say you were to cast 3 lots of Fire2's instead of a Phoenix Flame. Each spell has a 1/256 chance it'll deal the max 421 HP of damage, which means it is possible for all three attacks to deal the max possible of 1263, the same as 1x Phoenix Flame (a rounding issue causes the HP value to be 2 out).

But, what if all three Fire2's hit the lowest possible damage of 394? You would have a minimum overall total damage of 1182, again, only a few digits out from the Phoenix Flame due to a rounding issue.

So, in summary, casting 3 x Fire2's is exactly the same as casting 1x Phoenix Flame in terms of projected damage output.
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(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: phiefer3

phiefer3
2 months ago#10
DynamixDJ posted...
I'm not 100% sure there would be much variation tbh...

The only sort of variation I expect would be in the type of random distribution between the 2 options.

Casting a single spell should produce an even distribution across its entire damage range (ie every value in the range is just as likely as every other value).

Casting 3 weaker spells and summing their damages would instead produce more of a bell curve, making the summed result a bit more predictable than casting a single stronger spell.

This is basically the same as when rolling dice. If you roll a single 12 sided die then every side has an equal chance of coming up. But if you instead roll a pair of 6-sided die then rolling a 7 becomes a lot more likely than rolling a 2 or a 12.

So if anything this means that casting 3 Fire2s would vary less wildly than casting a single Phoenix, not the other way around.
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  3. How do the elemental summons compare to each of their spells?