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  2. Final Fantasy VII
  3. Natural Max HP/MP Calculation - Maxing Both

User Info: codemann8

codemann8
10 months ago#1
I've taken a look at the Party Mechanics Guide and I fully understand how each level calculates the next level's HP and MP. The guide shows that both HP and MP are calculated independently from each other with a 1 out of 8 chance of pulling a different number. What I don't understand is a phrase from AbsoluteSteve's guide regarding this, see the parts in bold:

AbsoluteSteve
Oo*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-oO
|| {PER-7} Max Natural HP/MP ||
Oo*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-*=-oO

BEFORE YOU READ ON, I RECOMMEND YOU READ THE APPENDIX OF THE PARTY MECHANICS
DOCUMENT, ALSO HOSTED AT GAMEFAQS, FOR A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THIS SECTION.

Take a look at the left table below. Looks nice, huh? Those are the maximum
natural values of HP and MP that your characters can obtain. They don't come
easy, and it will require a lot of resetting in order to get those values.

The table on the right shows the process of MP not being able to be maxed out
simultaneously with HP.
The first value shows the maximum natural MP if you
would only max out MP naturally (so technically, it's possible to have). The
value on the right shows the maximum value of natural MP if you also wish to
max natural HP.

The table on the left can be considered your final result, your reward.

Max Natural Values: Slight shift in Max MP:
.---------.----.---. .---------.-------------------------------.
|Name: | HP | MP| |Name: |Absolute --> In HP Combination |
|---------|----|---| |---------|-------------------------------|
|Cloud |9511|902| |Cloud | 905 --> 902 |
|Tifa |9037|848| |Tifa | 850 --> 848 |
|Aeris |8816|994| |Aeris | 994 --> 994 |
|Barret |9999|793| |Barret | 796 --> 793 |
|Red XIII |9556|863| |Red XIII | 866 --> 863 |
|Cid |9284|821| |Cid | 822 --> 821 |
|Yuffie |8993|838| |Yuffie | 841 --> 838 |
|Vincent |8779|907| |Vincent | 915 --> 907 |
|Cait Sith|9135|869| |Cait Sith| 869 --> 869 |
'---------'--------' '---------'-------------------------------'

The table listed slightly below is a table with Max Safety Levels. These are
the levels that you are allowed to level up to without paying attention to your
character's natural HP or MP. After those levels, you'll have to follow a
certain path in order to max Natural HP/MP.

Note: In order to simplify things, I have chosen to only list the Safety Levels
when you want to max out BOTH Natural HP and MP. If you only wish to max
out one of the two, refer to Terence Party Mechanics.

Technical Note: The tables in Terence's Party Mechanics are not incorrect, but
are not much use to us if we want to max out BOTH HP and MP,
which is exactly the goal of a perfect game. To keep things
simple, a choice had to be made to attain the *absolute*
natural max of either HP or MP (for technical reasons, the game
doesn't allow both to reach the *absolute* value
). This choice
was quickly made, and HP will reach its absolute maximum value
while MP will reach it's maximum natural value that is possible
to attain in combination with max natural HP. In other words,
HP is deemed more important to MP (for various reasons).

Why not? What is this technical reason?

User Info: codemann8

codemann8
10 months ago#2
I ran out of characters on the OP...

What is the technical reason? Does the game use a different calculation for the final level? That seems odd because some of the characters are listed as fully able to Max both. But from the math listed in the Party Mechanics Guide, both HP and MP are calculated independently of each other with both values being completely unaware of each other. Hopefully someone here has dabbled in it and can explain it.

User Info: DynamixDJ

DynamixDJ
10 months ago#3
I'm not too well versed in character growth mechanics I'm afraid, it's an area I'm yet to dive into. I'm guessing there's a conflicting point down the line in which the RNG only grants a required boost to hit the safety lv for either HP or MP, but not both. Again, that's just a guess.

Perhaps @NFITC1 would be able to shed some light?
FFVII Walkthrough: http://www.neoseeker.com/final-fantasy-vii/faqs/1733032-dynamixdj.html
PasteBin Page: https://pastebin.com/u/DynamixDJ

User Info: Erzfreund

Erzfreund
10 months ago#4
There is no RNG combination out of 256 that would result in a maximum (8) for HP and in a maximum (8) for MP. HP and MP are next to each other in the look-up-table. When getting the level-up, it just starts in position x and ends in position x+7 (or so?! well, all the other stats). There are no numbers next to each other in the table, who are Mod 8.

User Info: codemann8

codemann8
10 months ago#5
That's strange because you can get all 64 combinations out of 256 with lots of room to spare:

* | 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08
--------------------
1 | 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07
2 | 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15
3 | 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
4 | 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31
5 | 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39
6 | 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47
7 | 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55
8 | 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63


Maybe I'm not understanding. I have heard the RNG is a bit messed up in this game but is anyone watching the thread able to describe why 8 and 8 is not possible? And also if there are other combinations that aren't possible? If it's MODing it, what does it do when the MOD(x, 8) = 0? I guess I'd assume it'd either make those 8s, or just MOD(x, 8) + 1 (ensuring all values 1-8 both ways).

Knowing this will be essential to that spreadsheet I'm working on (a future revision of this will calculate YOUR possible safe values as you level on the fly, instead of looking at the massive chart)

User Info: Erzfreund

Erzfreund
10 months ago#6
This is not how the level-up RNG works.
The specific look-up table for this RNG is fixed due being a single sequence. That's why there are only 256 fixed outcomes and, again, there are no numbers next to each other which would represent 8 after applying the modulus.
There are multiple, differently working RNG.

46 and 64 are also not possible.

All possible outcomes:

11
11
12
12
12
12
13
13
13
13
13
14
14
14
14
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65
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71
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81
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87

User Info: codemann8

codemann8
10 months ago#7
@Erzfreund, very interesting and insightful reply! Thank you! So what I can confer from that is that each combination actually has a different probability of hitting. So actually, there exists a "path" to the max natural HP/MP that has the lowest probability of misses, effectively requiring the minimum number of restarts! That's definitely a calculation that I'd definitely be interested in pioneering myself. One thing I'd like to clarify, that resulting table you posted, is that an actual fixed table that the game itself provides, or is that determined by a calculation?

User Info: codemann8

codemann8
10 months ago#8
And another clarification, am I to assume the left value is HP and right is MP?

User Info: Erzfreund

Erzfreund
10 months ago#9
Hmm, I think there is a path, but sticking to it … is it really worth it? Once you hit a certain level range you have to hit 87 or 78 (Cid?). If this happens five levels sooner or later won't matter much. Maybe. If you want to try, I suggest starting with Vincent as he is the fastest to calculate, if I remember correctly.

The table is fixed. The outcome posted was sorted though.

Yes, you are correct: Left HP, right MP.

User Info: codemann8

codemann8
10 months ago#10
I think it could potentially be worth it if for instance you sacrifice a resetting a safe value for a better safe value (under a 1/8 chance earlier on) if it saves you from a 1/64 chance later on down the path. The safe value charts only simply tell you that it's "possible" with your value, not "probable". Key word in that statement being: potentially.

You're definitely right, the last few levels for sure you can only do it one way, which will only serve to help eliminate unnecessary calculation on my part.

Basically what I would do is write a program that traverses thru the possibilities (I'm aware there's a lot, I'm envisioning a lot of tree pruning needing to occur) backwards. If a better path does in fact exist, the question is, what's the worst path and is it much different than the best one, that will determine whether it's worth it or not. I'm thinking...it possibly could be and could save a lot of time down the road.

If this does exist, I would think the findings would show that you'd have to start tracking a few levels before the safe level, which potentially could be harder for characters with an lower safe level, like Vincent.

The only concern and unanswered question that I have is what HP/MP a character will have when they join your party for the first time. The level that they start at is well documented, but not what HP/MP they start at. I'm not sure if that too is auto traversing each level from their start value with a 1/8 chance each level or if it just gives you the standard 100% base value for that level. More digging is likely needed for that.

The interesting part of that fixed table you posted is that as scattered as everything seems to be, the chances of hitting 1 thru 8 seem to be nearly an even distribution if you look at both dimensions separately. But their combination is completely all over the place, some have a 9/256 chance, some have 2/256 chance.
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  3. Natural Max HP/MP Calculation - Maxing Both
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