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  3. Battle question: Stamina

User Info: BMcDohl

BMcDohl
9 years ago#1
I've just picked this game up after many years away. So, the battle system is not fresh in my head.

In the first area where you fight komodos and beach bums, i've noticed that if I choose the combo 1,2,3 (stamina usage), I always get the last stamina point so I can defend for the next round. That's 6 stamina total.

But, if I choose 2,2,2, I always get interrupted by a komodo or beach bum attack before I can use that last stamina point. But i've still only used 6 stamina. What gives?
Estuans interius, ira vehementi, Sephiroth!
Burning inside, with violent anger, Sephiroth!

User Info: DazuroGhenari

DazuroGhenari
9 years ago#2
To my understanding, each attack has its own "delay" value that determines when your next turn comes/when the enemy can take its turn, and different levels of physical strikes have different delays, so some combos are more interruptible than others.
A girl from Baron was kept from falling down.
No hermitauring allowed.

User Info: VeghEsther

VeghEsther
9 years ago#3
Also the ONLY way to restore it in battle is to either have a 2nd or 3rd PC attack then the previous PC's regain 1 to 3 Stamina points or select the defend command in battles.

User Info: LBoksha

LBoksha
9 years ago#4
In the first area where you fight komodos and beach bums, i've noticed that if I choose the combo 1,2,3 (stamina usage), I always get the last stamina point so I can defend for the next round. That's 6 stamina total.

But, if I choose 2,2,2, I always get interrupted by a komodo or beach bum attack before I can use that last stamina point. But i've still only used 6 stamina. What gives?


Complete coincidence.

To my understanding, each attack has its own "delay" value that determines when your next turn comes/when the enemy can take its turn, and different levels of physical strikes have different delays, so some combos are more interruptible than others.

You're right on the different delays bit, but it happens that every physical attack has exactly the same delay as the amount of stamina it costs. (i.e. weak attacks take 1 unit of time, medium attacks 2, strong attacks 3) Hence the odds of getting attacked after or during weak->medium->strong are exactly the same as the odds of getting attacked after or during medium->medium->medium, since both strings cost 6 units of time.

The confusing part is that stamina is not in any way tied to time. In particular, whether enemies attack you has nothing to do with a single character running out of stamina. (though, if your entire team runs out of stamina, you will get an enemy attack for sure; if you're alone or with two characters, this will happen a lot) Enemies attack purely based on how much time has passed (1 turn/tick/time unit for weak attack, elements and defending, 2 ticks for medium attacks and 3 ticks for strong ones; if nobody has stamina, time passes until the next enemy attack), hence enemies can interrupt your series of attacks if they became ready during one of your attacks.
You try to run away. But there's no escape! The enemy tries to run away. But there's no escape!

User Info: zz1000zz

zz1000zz
9 years ago#5
LBoksha posted...
Complete coincidence.

The timing of enemy turns is deterministic, so it's relatively easy to tell when they'll happen. It's also quite easy for a minor difference to alter the observed timing patterns. He's probably just did something different in the battles, or the enemies just happened to spawn with their timers set at the "right" points to cause this.

The big question is, how many battles has he tried, and does he get the same result in each? I'd wager not.

if nobody has stamina, time passes until the next enemy attack), hence enemies can interrupt your series of attacks if they became ready during one of your attacks.

If things were as you describe, it'd be possible for an enemy to get more than one turn while you wait. That's not the case. Instead, time advances until one of your characters can act. Any enemies who get a turn in that period attack at that point, and the delay for their next action is set then.

User Info: LBoksha

LBoksha
9 years ago#6
The timing of enemy turns is deterministic

The time until the next enemy action is determined at the beginning of battle or after the last action. There's still a pretty big random factor in determining the delay though, so you'd need to use emulator save-states to actually know beforehand when the enemy will act with 100% certainty.

If things were as you describe, it'd be possible for an enemy to get more than one turn while you wait. That's not the case.

Well, that's true. But...

Instead, time advances until one of your characters can act. Any enemies who get a turn in that period attack at that point, and the delay for their next action is set then.

If it worked like that, you'd always end up with around 1.0-2.0 stamina after running out (since that's all you need for a character to be able to act), and it'd be possible to get back in control without getting attacked by an enemy. Instead, you generally end up with much more than 1.0 stamina after running out, and you always get attacked by at least one enemy. (unless there's a type of enemy present that can actually skip actions, like Cuscus or Mannequins)

So now I'm not entirely sure how running out of stamina works, but so far neither description in this thread is complete.
The following, at least, is true:
1. If you run out of stamina, an enemy will act.
2. After that enemy's action, you will be back in control before that enemy acts again, even if you could not have recovered sufficient stamina in the time you were forced to wait.

I'm actually beginning to think that, if the next enemy attack happens before any character has at least 1.0 stamina, everyone's stamina is automatically set to 7.0 after the enemy attack. (I've seen this happen a lot during boss fights, especially early in the game when you don't have 3 characters yet)
It's been a while since I actually did actual tests though, and I currently don't have the means or time to actually do more.
You try to run away. But there's no escape! The enemy tries to run away. But there's no escape!

User Info: zz1000zz

zz1000zz
9 years ago#7
LBoksha posted...
The time until the next enemy action is determined at the beginning of battle or after the last action. There's still a pretty big random factor in determining the delay though, so you'd need to use emulator save-states to actually know beforehand when the enemy will act with 100% certainty.

To my recollection, the only random aspect is what the delay is set to at the start of the battle. But it has been a long time since I played.

Instead, you generally end up with much more than 1.0 stamina after running out, and you always get attacked by at least one enemy

Good point. I think you're right about time advancing until the next enemy can attack. I think what threw me is what you describe here:

I'm actually beginning to think that, if the next enemy attack happens before any character has at least 1.0 stamina, everyone's stamina is automatically set to 7.0 after the enemy attack. (I've seen this happen a lot during boss fights, especially early in the game when you don't have 3 characters yet)

I think this may be true because of a bug/design feature. I think after enemies have attacked, if the player has no actions available, time can't pass properly. The reason is without character actions, there's nothing to advance the timer since the enemies' delay hasn't been reset yet. To keep the game from getting stuck, the code automatically advances the timer by a large amount or just resets character stamina (I suspect the latter).

I actually have a pretty good idea of how all this could work in coding, but trying to translate it into regular language is tricky. Basically, there is a loop which controls "time." Every time you take an action, the loop is advanced by an amount corresponding to the action (as described in an earlier post). If you cannot take an action, it is then advanced by the lowest remaining "delay" of any enemy. This is repeated until one of your characters can act.

However, that delay does not get reset until one of your characters can act. When you are prompted to take an action, the game checks all enemies' delay value, and resets it if necessary (and sets a flag to cause it to act if it's time is up). This means it's possible for the game to run through the loop without having anything happen, at which point, as a failsafe, it resets all character stamina to 7.0.

I have no idea how clear that is for you guys, but I'm pretty sure it's how the game works.

It's been a while since I actually did actual tests though, and I currently don't have the means or time to actually do more.

I understand that situation. I haven't had a copy of Chrono Cross in over a year, so I have to go off memory a lot.

User Info: BMcDohl

BMcDohl
9 years ago#8
Wow, that was way more informative than I was expecting!

In the interest of furthering the discussion, I went back to the area (blanking on the name atm). I hadn't yet gone to the beach to switch worlds yet, so no variation other than re-entering the area. Gained one star level because of the mama komodo, not sure if that matters.

It does seem like my first experience there was a coincidence. I was interrupted at regular intervals by the same mobs. But it didn't matter so much which attacks I used, as long as I used enough stamina to let them get their turns. So, whether I used 2,2,2 or 1,2,3 no longer mattered. Strange experience I guess.
Estuans interius, ira vehementi, Sephiroth!
Burning inside, with violent anger, Sephiroth!

User Info: BohepansThe2nd

BohepansThe2nd
9 years ago#9
All this talk is reminding me of my Serge Only run...heh. Boy, some of those bosses were just mean when it came to giving me leeway to act. (Some bosses, I swear that after their first action in battle, you only get exactly 6 units of time before they get their "turn", every single time. And some other bosses, 7 units. Damn you, Criosphinx! Damn you, Miguel! Same to you, Garai! Angry fist!)

LBoksha posted...
I'm actually beginning to think that, if the next enemy attack happens before any character has at least 1.0 stamina, everyone's stamina is automatically set to 7.0 after the enemy attack.
In my experience, this is true...95% or so of the time. On very rare occasions, I could swear, the game feels ornery and will rob someone of a few points. But I believe it's rare enough that it won't be seen often if at all. Especially helpful for poor Solo Serge up there, heh. Without it, he'd probably be screwed over majorly. With it, bosses tend to become a pattern of "take appropriate action for boss's incoming attack; if none necessary, hit as hard as you can, then hope you don't eat a crit or something", heh.
Just as rare, though, I have seen occasions where everyone is at less than 1.0 Stamina, and the enemy refuses to act despite that time forcibly marches on to have people recover Stamina. But I don't believe that's ever happened to me on a boss, only lower-end enemies, so it's probably not too important, heh. (And I do mean other than Cuscus or Mannequins, that is, something I was certain *should* have had an action. But it's been too long, so I can't remember for sure, thus, take it with a grain of salt or what have you.)

Just throwing out my two cents worth...heh.
Proud creator of the Gutsy Bunny Challenge in Star Ocean 3.
"What the hell are you trying to steal, the enemy's virginity?" ~ StarkMaximum

User Info: LBoksha

LBoksha
9 years ago#10
(Some bosses, I swear that after their first action in battle, you only get exactly 6 units of time before they get their "turn", every single time. And some other bosses, 7 units. Damn you, Criosphinx! Damn you, Miguel! Same to you, Garai! Angry fist!)

You're not imagining things. Some bosses, including Garai, really do act that quickly. Greendoll/Anemotor, too.
You try to run away. But there's no escape! The enemy tries to run away. But there's no escape!
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