Sigrun [NG+ GMGOW] vs Dark Souls

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User Info: MayorOfMayhem

MayorOfMayhem
3 weeks ago#51
Dmor12 posted...
MayorOfMayhem posted...
Congrats man we knew you could do it and you did!


That was never the question nor intended point of my thread though. The question is of how she rates compared to other bosses in history.

For example, last night I dreamt of fighting Sephiroth from KH and KH2 again. Now there was a proper hard but fair fight.

I woke up.

...Sigurn?

...yep.

Still unimpressed. Meh.

Thanks to those who'd care to explain her utterly unintuitive attack patterns, but...

Can people finally stop dogpiling me on how to beat her now, and give me some honest opinions on how you'd rate her among what you'd consider among the best and worst boss fights?

For me, this one is an annoying Shao Kahn. 4 or 5 out of 10 (average) and that's being generous as I struggle to think of other s***ty bosses to rank her against. The other Valkeries are more of a 5 or a 6 at the very best. Magni and Modi are probably the best in this game. I give them an 8? Or maybe a 7...I guess. Yeah sound about right.

Pretty much everything in GoWIII is superior in the boss category. Zeus himself would be a 9. Damn, virtually all of them are top quality.

Darks Souls would pretty much be the Gold Standard. I'll just pick Fume Knight to represent them as an example of a 10.

No matter how you split hairs, when you think of it objectively, the bosses aren't exactly Dad of Bois selling point anyway. I expect better for Thor and Odin.

But I digress.

Now can I get some answers on how you'd rank Siggy?

The enemies in souls use the exact same concepts. You brought up the fume knight from ds2 as an example of a good boss fight even though he has questionable mechanics that plenty of people complained about.

If Raime does the attack where he sweeps the transformed sword across the entire screen you have to dodge a specific way to avoid massive damage. The correct way to dodge is not backwards, not to the right, but counter intuitively to the left, using I- frames (unexplained game knowledge) to safety go THROUGH the attack. Of course you need a certain amount of adaptability to even have enough I-frames for the dodge to work. How is that not bulls*** for shield users or people who don't understand how adaptability works? Not one place in the entire game does it ever explain any of that, you have to go to internet to find that information. There's also the those ashen things that constantly give him back health making it literally impossible for people who haven't destroyed them.

Souls is honestly worse than sigrun in this regard as nothing she does requires anything but careful observation to counter, like which attack she is about to do based on the direction she preemptively dashes. The goomba stomp is simply a matter of reacting to visual and audio cues with properly timed inputs (as in every single enemy in every single souls game ever).

I would rank sigrun high in my list of boss fights. She is basically a souls boss on roids, which personally I found enjoyable. It's fine that you didn't enjoy it but it is far more subjective than you are making it seem. Just because you have slower reactions doesn't make the boss objectively bad, especially since we are talking about the highest difficultly setting possible.
Xbox: Soul of Manus
Psn: Grogladarr

User Info: BigSnick

BigSnick
3 weeks ago#52
MayorOfMayhem posted...
Dmor12 posted...
MayorOfMayhem posted...
Congrats man we knew you could do it and you did!


That was never the question nor intended point of my thread though. The question is of how she rates compared to other bosses in history.
Amen

For example, last night I dreamt of fighting Sephiroth from KH and KH2 again. Now there was a proper hard but fair fight.

I woke up.

...Sigurn?

...yep.

Still unimpressed. Meh.

Thanks to those who'd care to explain her utterly unintuitive attack patterns, but...

Can people finally stop dogpiling me on how to beat her now, and give me some honest opinions on how you'd rate her among what you'd consider among the best and worst boss fights?

For me, this one is an annoying Shao Kahn. 4 or 5 out of 10 (average) and that's being generous as I struggle to think of other s***ty bosses to rank her against. The other Valkeries are more of a 5 or a 6 at the very best. Magni and Modi are probably the best in this game. I give them an 8? Or maybe a 7...I guess. Yeah sound about right.

Pretty much everything in GoWIII is superior in the boss category. Zeus himself would be a 9. Damn, virtually all of them are top quality.

Darks Souls would pretty much be the Gold Standard. I'll just pick Fume Knight to represent them as an example of a 10.

No matter how you split hairs, when you think of it objectively, the bosses aren't exactly Dad of Bois selling point anyway. I expect better for Thor and Odin.

But I digress.

Now can I get some answers on how you'd rank Siggy?

The enemies in souls use the exact same concepts. You brought up the fume knight from ds2 as an example of a good boss fight even though he has questionable mechanics that plenty of people complained about.

If Raime does the attack where he sweeps the transformed sword across the entire screen you have to dodge a specific way to avoid massive damage. The correct way to dodge is not backwards, not to the right, but counter intuitively to the left, using I- frames (unexplained game knowledge) to safety go THROUGH the attack. Of course you need a certain amount of adaptability to even have enough I-frames for the dodge to work. How is that not bulls*** for shield users or people who don't understand how adaptability works? Not one place in the entire game does it ever explain any of that, you have to go to internet to find that information. There's also the those ashen things that constantly give him back health making it literally impossible for people who haven't destroyed them.

Souls is honestly worse than sigrun in this regard as nothing she does requires anything but careful observation to counter, like which attack she is about to do based on the direction she preemptively dashes. The goomba stomp is simply a matter of reacting to visual and audio cues with properly timed inputs (as in every single enemy in every single souls game ever).

I would rank sigrun high in my list of boss fights. She is basically a souls boss on roids, which personally I found enjoyable. It's fine that you didn't enjoy it but it is far more subjective than you are making it seem. Just because you have slower reactions doesn't make the boss objectively bad, especially since we are talking about the highest difficultly setting possible.


Amen
Psn - BigSnick81
(edited 3 weeks ago)

User Info: Dmor12

Dmor12
3 weeks ago#53
BigSnick posted...


The enemies in souls use the exact same concepts. You brought up the fume knight from ds2 as an example of a good boss fight even though he has questionable mechanics that plenty of people complained about.

If Raime does the attack where he sweeps the transformed sword across the entire screen you have to dodge a specific way to avoid massive damage. The correct way to dodge is not backwards, not to the right, but counter intuitively to the left, using I- frames (unexplained game knowledge) to safety go THROUGH the attack. Of course you need a certain amount of adaptability to even have enough I-frames for the dodge to work. How is that not bulls*** for shield users or people who don't understand how adaptability works? Not one place in the entire game does it ever explain any of that, you have to go to internet to find that information. There's also the those ashen things that constantly give him back health making it literally impossible for people who haven't destroyed them.

Souls is honestly worse than sigrun in this regard as nothing she does requires anything but careful observation to counter, like which attack she is about to do based on the direction she preemptively dashes. The goomba stomp is simply a matter of reacting to visual and audio cues with properly timed inputs (as in every single enemy in every single souls game ever).

I would rank sigrun high in my list of boss fights. She is basically a souls boss on roids, which personally I found enjoyable. It's fine that you didn't enjoy it but it is far more subjective than you are making it seem. Just because you have slower reactions doesn't make the boss objectively bad, especially since we are talking about the highest difficultly setting possible.


Fine.

I disagree on account that Dark Souls has a greater variety of solutions to the problem of their bosses other than "purely rote memorize attack pattern A or get on shotted" given that their build and class system is much more in depth.

Between the healing, weapon, summoning, and buffing options, one can figure out the Fume Knight on ones own intuition and personality.

For instance, one of my characters struggled against him, while the other was able to fight him evenly simply because it was optimized for different tactics.

There's also never an instance where there's only one way to counter an attack that is otherwise unavoidable and unblockabe (i.e. if you don't have a projectile ready you're doomed).

But fine.

Anyone else want to share?p
"A man can remake the entire world, if he has a dream and no facts to cloud his mind."
~Dman Out~
Congrats on your win!

imo Sigrun is one of the best designed bosses of all time. This is because she has a massive moveset, and every one of her moves requires a specific dodge or counter from the player to avoid damage. Some require precise timing, and some require picking the correct direction to dodge. Everything is 100% avoidable when you learn it though, so there is no "cheapness" to her, only a highly demanding challenge that requires memorization and fast reactions from the player. This is what makes her great.

A few examples of what I mean:
--When she shoots 3 feathers at you from range, if you dodge roll these and don't sidestep them, then if she follows up with a quick red lunge attack you will always get hit, because you will still be in your roll animation.

--When she is far from you and dashes to her left (your right), then quickly lunge attacks you, you have to dodge roll right. If you sidestep right or dodge left you get hit. Likewise if she dashes to her right, only dodging left is safe for you. She often does this attack right after placing a line of fire puddles down the center of the arena (the Muspleheim valkyrie's opening attack), and will always force you to dodge into the fire puddles. The only way to avoid damage is to consciously put extra distance between yourself and the fire before she forces you to dodge her lunge attack.

--Never try to punish her after a spinning wing attack, because she often quickly chains this into Valhalla.

--Her Valhallas require an instant dodge roll to start with, then if you see lava you have to wait a beat, then dodge roll again. If you dodge too soon after the lava appears you will get hit when she comes down. When she goes back up again quickly dodge roll and see if it is a lava or a normal Valhalla and react accordingly.

--If you don't parry every attack that is parryable you will get hit (blocking is not safe for these). There is always time to land your parries, but the parryable attack she chains right after wing swipes is fast.

Anyway, I loved this boss because she was incredibly hard but perfectly fair--everything she does is 100% avoidable when you know the specific requirement to avoid damage, but even when you do perfect execution is still very difficult.
GT: Nigel Tuffnel11, PSN: NigelTuffnel11
(edited 1 week ago)

User Info: Elemenope

Elemenope
1 week ago#55
Sigrun on NG+ GMGOW is harder than any boss in any of the Souls games. You may think she has some cheap moves in GMGOW mode, but in NG+ GMGOW she will chain these cheap moves together in sequences, like blinding you and then immediately trowing chakrams at you in your blindness, then diving at you while the chakrams are still coming. She'll go for a stomp on you, and if that stomp misses she just keeps trying for 6 more stomps (where any one of them can one-shot you even if you're level 10) unless you kvasir dodge one of them and interrupt her with a runic attack during the slo mo before she can stomp again. It is just ridiculous how much pressure she puts on you, and for so long too since her health bar is Darkeater-Midir tier in size

User Info: Kensaimage

Kensaimage
1 week ago#56
Elemenope posted...
Sigrun on NG+ GMGOW is harder than any boss in any of the Souls games. You may think she has some cheap moves in GMGOW mode, but in NG+ GMGOW she will chain these cheap moves together in sequences, like blinding you and then immediately trowing chakrams at you in your blindness, then diving at you while the chakrams are still coming. She'll go for a stomp on you, and if that stomp misses she just keeps trying for 6 more stomps (where any one of them can one-shot you even if you're level 10) unless you kvasir dodge one of them and interrupt her with a runic attack during the slo mo before she can stomp again. It is just ridiculous how much pressure she puts on you, and for so long too since her health bar is Darkeater-Midir tier in size


All the more satisfying the victory, afterwards

User Info: the_op

the_op
1 week ago#57
I don't know if its due to the fact that I'm older now but NG+ GMGOW sigrun is the hardest boss I've beaten in any game, and I've been playing video games for over 20 years now.

I wouldn't say that she is cheap since all her attacks can be countered, her health pool does appear to be too much though, would be better if it was reduced by 30% or something.
the_op posted...
I don't know if its due to the fact that I'm older now but NG+ GMGOW Sigrun is the hardest boss I've beaten in any game, and I've been playing video games for over 20 years now.

I wouldn't say that she is cheap since all her attacks can be countered, her health pool does appear to be too much though, would be better if it was reduced by 30% or something.


Kensaimage posted...
All the more satisfying the victory, afterwards


Bottom line. ^_^

.
~Emotions are the fuel, scientific methods are the vehicle, and TRUTH is the destination~

User Info: Dmor12

Dmor12
6 days ago#59
As I watched the ending of God of War for a second time, I paused it to take a clear screenshot of Thor.

Hmm.

I feel like Thor is cheapened now thanks to Sigrun. We know that they won't make a main storyline boss as hard as the optional one. This is actually a downgrade.

This reminds me of a JRPG I played recently that had incredible design in its boss balancing: Tales of Beseria.

All and all, it was an average JRPG, but the boss balancing in the background really helped sell it as something game designers could learn from.

First of all, the game, it doesn't even allow you to tackle the "optional dungeon" and "ultra powerful optional bosses" and inadvertently powergrind to OP levels until after you beat the game normally at least once. So the final boss really ends up being the hardest enemy of the game. When you finally beat the main villain whose plagued you throughout the game, you feel REALLY proud of yourself.

Ah. Now the pathway to overpowered character grinding is open. If you want to. As expected, by the time you gained all the rewards of the optional challenges, the original final dungeon is a joke. The final boss is as well...at first.

Ah, but the Bamco developers, aware of such power creep, rewards you by massively upgrading the main villain's final form.

So even after beating up a bunch of hyper-dragons, the storyline villain still remains the hardest challenge in the game.

That was my main takeaway from Tales of Berseria: How to keep the greatest challenge on the main villain.

------

Now, thanks to Sigrun's cheese, how are we supposed to respect Thor? Ending Sigrun on NG+ GMGOW cheapen any satisfaction I should've gotten defeating Baldur on NG+ GMGOW.

Did Baldur kill me a bunch of times? Yes.

Did he feel like a worthy opponent? I guess.

Did I shout "AWESOME I DID IT!" when I finally snapped his neck?

Nope.

Why?

Because I had grinded through an enemy who is artificially far more challenging and annoying. What else could I feel thanks to Sigrun being so artificially hard?

Now what? Seriously? Now what? From a gameplay challenge point of view, how are they supposed to make us FEEL that Sigrun is but a middle-manager amongst the pantheon of Norse gods?

What next? Thor will be the main story boss with a minor Aesir such as say, Heimdall, as the next Sigrun?

Coming in 2021, Heimdall will kill you with broken stat inflation and videogamey cheese tactics that take you over a week to overcome (provided you first spoil the fight by learning exactly how his unintuitive AI is designed from the internet)?

Then you'll beat Thor after only a few hours (without guides) and feel NOTHING?

Is that it?

The most difficult enemy in the game should be the final boss. Killing the optional boss should unlock an upgrade for the final boss so we may remember THE NARRATIVE villian as the hardest aspect of the game. Killing Sigrun doesn't come with an ending celebrating your achievement. Killing Balder does. If killing Sigrun flagged the game to unleash a supped up version of Balder, perhaps that'd be even better for you masochists. But it doesn't. Especially when too much of Sigrun is Battletoads unfair.

Now I'm afraid that Thor will be the next to look like a pushover thanks to an overwanked optional boss design.

TL;DRThat she's whole magnitudes of order more difficult than Balder on account of an unintuitive attack pattern cheapened the narrative.

Zeus was the hardest enemy in GoWII and GoWIII as he SHOULD BE. That's a lesson that I'm afraid Santa Monica might forget in their quest to convert the game into an RPG.
"A man can remake the entire world, if he has a dream and no facts to cloud his mind."
~Dman Out~
(edited 6 days ago)
Dmor12, you remind me of those guys that "hate on" a girl FOREVER cause, back in the day she turned you down when you asked her "out" to the prom(Council of Valkyies).

It's ok buddy... You beat her(improved your life, made a career, wife, kids, family dog, 2 car garage, etc)... Let that "bitter high school crush turned hated" go, GP. You won.

Let the hate go GP. You've beaten her.

Ps,

she wanted me to tell you, she's sorry for treating you the way she did back then(All those VAHALLA! UNWORTHY!'s to your neck)... She now realizes she, "lost out of a winning ticket", when she turned down all your advances(i.e., all those losing fights strategies against her). She's on gov't assistance, with two kids now(back in Asgard) btw.

: D

.
~Emotions are the fuel, scientific methods are the vehicle, and TRUTH is the destination~
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