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  3. Ugh, the gambit system is frustrating, why do people praise it as so great?

User Info: HHH is the game

HHH is the game
5 months ago#1
I see people in topics going on about how powerful the gambit system is and its so great, and youre stupid if you dont understand it.

Im only up to the big spider boss and Im already frustrated by this thing. The problem is that it still doesnt give you enough control, and there needs to be some middle ground between automatic and manual.

First of all its pretty ridiculous there's no way to say 'steal if you can steal an item, then stop stealing once you cant anymore'. You talk about how its very powerful, but a smart AI one of the first things you would think they could do is steal an item from each enemy in turn and then start attacking, but that is not an option. Yes there are other things, like HP = 100%, but I find it often takes 2 or 3 times to steal an item, which means you will be doing it manually anyways. Nevermind against bosses where you are forced to take control of the stealer to do multiple steals.

But my biggest frustration comes from my inability to say something very simple in a game where you are managing AI party members. 'Attack this enemy until he's dead, then do something smart'. It would be great if you could say 'kill this enemy and then go back to your gambits' but you can't do that. You can have them attack an enemy...ONCE...and then go back to the gambits. But you cant tell them to break from their routine and go take care of one of the monsters.

So in the spider battle, when he spawns 4 little spiders and puts them off to the opposite sides of the map, you are screwed. The smart thing to do would be, 'spread out, kill one little spider each, then regroup and attack the boss'. Unfortunately this isnt really possible. You can turn off the gambits on everybody, and assign them to each attack one. Then they'll keep doing it. But annoyingly, once you DO this, if they finish killing the enemy they will then just stand there and do nothing, rather than find another target to fight. So I'm fighting the boss, and through all the hecticness I realize that my partners are stuck. Because of the strictess of the gambit system, they cant do anything at all unless you tell them to or set them to act automatically, but the automatic actions arent even powerful enough to handle 'kill this enemy then attack somebody else.'

I don't see how people can praise this system as so powerful when it can't do so much and youre forced to deal with it or totally micromanage.
Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

User Info: ChaosBeelzemon

ChaosBeelzemon
5 months ago#2
"Foe: Lowest Maximum HP-> Attack" will do the job. Just because Gambits don't allow you to execute every single strategy imaginable automatically doesn't make not powerful.

User Info: HHH is the game

HHH is the game
5 months ago#3
ChaosBeelzemon posted...
"Foe: Lowest Maximum HP-> Attack" will do the job. Just because Gambits don't allow you to execute every single strategy imaginable automatically doesn't make not powerful.


It will, but it wont split them up to effectively attack different ones. I did get to a new town and see one that allows you to attack somebody not attacked by an ally. Id still like more control, but I guess that will make them spread out.

Will there ever be enough gambit slots to make a truly effective white mage who knows how to respond to any status effect?
Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

User Info: Hinnyuu

Hinnyuu
5 months ago#4
Using gambits smartly is part of the system. No, it can't automate EVERYTHING, but that's part of the equation - the player's task is to take the tools they have at their disposal, and put them to the most effective use they can think up.

If you want everything to go absolutely PERFECTLY, you need to intervene manually from time to time. That's no big surprise, though, given that any scripted sequence, even if we had more options and more space, would eventually encounter something it's not prepared to handle perfectly.

HHH is the game posted...
Will there ever be enough gambit slots to make a truly effective white mage who knows how to respond to any status effect?

Actually yes. The key here is that some gambits are "smart", but others are not. Steal is a good example of a "dumb" gambit - you'll keep stealing forever even if you've already stolen everything. Curing statuses, however, is smart. Not only can you just set "Ally:Any" as the condition without needing to specify the ailment (like e.g. "Ally:Sleep" or whatever), you can also combine that with a spell like Esuna or an item like Remedy to make a single gambit that cures a whole bunch of statuses. "Ally:Any -> Esuna", for example, will fire if and only if a status that Esuna can remove is present on an Ally, and won't keep casting it if there is nothing to remove. Same with "Ally:Any->Phoenix Down" (or Raise), it will only fire if an ally is actually K.O.'d.

It's up to you to figure out the configurations that work best for you and your personal style. There's a number of ways to go about things, and going deeper into the system you'll realize that a good gambit list will be quite sufficient for most scenarios. Bosses may require you to switch things up, but the general paradigm is usually the same. And while you won't have perfection EVERY time, the added convenience will often be a more than welcome trade-off for the occasional inefficiency. And if things REALLY go wrong, manual is always there for corrections.

User Info: HHH is the game

HHH is the game
5 months ago#5
I just wish the manual input blended better with the gambits. Like I could tell my guy 'attack this guy until hes dead' and when they finish that task, they go back to gambitting, rather than standing there until I manually switch them back on
Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

User Info: Hinnyuu

Hinnyuu
5 months ago#6
HHH is the game posted...
I just wish the manual input blended better with the gambits. Like I could tell my guy 'attack this guy until hes dead' and when they finish that task, they go back to gambitting, rather than standing there until I manually switch them back on

Perhaps you may simply need a better gambit setup, then.

For example, what you mentioned with the Mimic Queen fight could be handled by changing the gambit conditional to something like "Enemy:Lowest HP", meaning your team would chase after the small mimics, kill them, and then go back to the big one. Smart positioning of your party members can help avoid an issue of everyone chasing the same one (since all things being equal, characters tend to default to the closest unit around them). You can also use a combination of stacked triggers to smartly deal with changing situations.

User Info: Melodia

Melodia
5 months ago#7
HHH is the game posted...

Will there ever be enough gambit slots to make a truly effective white mage who knows how to respond to any status effect?


You get Esuna eventually. At that point you only need Esuna, Cleanse when you get it, and if you REALLY need all statuses cured with magic, add Ally: Status = Stop ---> Dispel (which will also cute any positive statuses they have, note)....and you can't cute oil, doom or stone (which is different from petrify, note), with white magic at all.

And while I agree there's a lot missing from the system, it is in fact very robust. For instance, you can easily hit weaknesses without needing libra (the gambit system will know weaknesses no matter what), you can have a mage attack when the enemy had reflect up, you can even set up a nice poaching loop with Sight Unseeing. Sometimes it takes a little work, some of the things are dumb, as noted above, but all in all there's plenty that can be done that even works with quite a myriad of playstyles.
Always Remember, Green Hair Is Cool.

User Info: bybyr

bybyr
5 months ago#8
I think gambit system was the infancy of AI system in current gen games. I think the system is a bit too simple, since you cannot combine multiple status to trigger a command.

I suspect the gambit system may also be the result of crazy deadline. This system allows players to set the parameter for attack commands, which supposed to be the developers' jobs. Since Akitoshi Kawazu designed this game, I am not surprised with the result. However, I think the design is lazily clever and grinding in this game is crazily addictive as you will be rewarded for every gambit design you made.
Member Since January 9th, 2005: mostly active in Saga Frontier boards. join our group! http://tinyurl.com/Sfgfaqs

User Info: WeWerePirates

WeWerePirates
5 months ago#9
Gambit system is a little weak in terms of what you can do. Being able to chain conditions would have been a big help. TBH I'm a little disappointed ailments and Steal wasn't fixed in TZA, IMO the behaviour on both is much more of a flaw than a feature. But really it's not that hard to work around, neither really hurts outside of weak mode. A party with Enemy 100% HP -> Steal and then either tag them manually or have one character that will hit them if you not worrying about stealing from everything will get it done. Steal is overrated any way, you either need a specific item with a horrible steal chance, and for generating Gil cat ear hoods are much better. Ailments are pretty weak in most situations, using them manually when they aren't isn't bad.

bybyr posted...
I suspect the gambit system may also be the result of crazy deadline.


It was by design from early on IIRC.

User Info: PsymunGundam

PsymunGundam
5 months ago#10
HHH is the game posted...
First of all its pretty ridiculous there's no way to say 'steal if you can steal an item, then stop stealing once you cant anymore'. You talk about how its very powerful, but a smart AI one of the first things you would think they could do is steal an item from each enemy in turn and then start attacking, but that is not an option. Yes there are other things, like HP = 100%, but I find it often takes 2 or 3 times to steal an item, which means you will be doing it manually anyways. Nevermind against bosses where you are forced to take control of the stealer to do multiple steals.


I think the steal gambit was intentionally designed this way, as per this interview quote from director Takashi Katano in https://retronauts.com/article/421/the-trials-tribulations-and-trial-mode-of-final-fantasy-xii-the-zodiac-age

"As for play improvements, like what you mentioned with the stealing Gambit, we definitely didn't want to make it too convenient. We wanted to keep that element of trial-and-error, that sort of healthy player frustration that makes the game fun. We left that in and tried to emphasize the environmental improvements more than anything else. "

As in, they heard the feedback about the stealing gambit after the PS2 vanilla version, and intentionally didn't fix it.
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