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  2. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
  3. Why Breath of the Wild does not return the series to its roots

User Info: Zeveria

Zeveria
1 week ago#11
Microelectrode posted...
An old man in a labyrinth says, “Spectacle Rock is the entrance to death.” You need to 1) know that refers to Death Mountain, 2) look for a structure on the mountain that resembles spectacles, helped a bit by a mysterious arrow nearby, and 3) blow up a wall (no cracks etc.)


Actually I don't need to know it leads to anything. I just need to go check what he's talking about. But in my case, I did know because all the previous Old Men in dungeons directed me to the next dungeon. =P As for the bomb, at this stage in the game it shouldn't be too hard to figure that out.

Microelectrode posted...
Zelda games don’t do that anymore. Now, Zelda games do two things differently. One, they hold your hand through most of the main quest. This started particularly with Ocarina of Time. And two, the main quest is small compared to the side content. That, I think, started with Majora’s Mask.


Mmmm partially true. The main quest--particularly dungeon focus--has been shrinking for a long time. But even with Majora's Mask the focus was roughly 50/50 (this is based off of 100% longplay times 100% and mostly main quest focus, so there's a margin of error). Of course, it's undeniable that BOTW has much more focus on side content.

Microelectrode posted...
Ocarina of Time was handholding, but at least most of the game consisted of finding and beating dungeons. If the games want to continue handholding the main quest, they should increase the number of dungeons. Less filler, more main content. But to return to the series “roots,” they would also return to the independent discovery of the dungeon entrances and required items themselves.


Yeah...even BOTW just told you where to go. Again, this has always been the case, though I will admit LoZ was at least less direct about it. I.e., telling you to go to "The Waterfall", but it doesn't tell you where the waterfall is.
TP > OoT = MM > ST = SS = tWW > TFH > ALBW = PH > BOTW = MC > OoA > OoS > LA > FSA > FS > LoZ > AoL >>> aLttP

User Info: Mr_Rudd

Mr_Rudd
1 week ago#12
Microelectrode posted...
One of the main claims of Breath of the Wild is that it returns the game to the roots of the series: you can go anywhere and do anything, just like the original Zelda. I don't think this is the case. In fact, I think Breath of the Wild takes the series farther in the new direction than it's ever been.

In the original NES Zelda, you had full access to the entire overworld, which was pretty barren except for minor secrets. The entire main quest was to find the entrances to the labyrinths. There were no people to help, nothing. One goal: find the labyrinths and beat them.

Not true. The overworld in Zelda 1 was filled with secrets everywhere and most of them had little to do with accessing the dungeons. Most of them were heart upgrades, items, equipment, etc. You could maybe say that all of that was buffing up for the dungeons, but then you could make the same argument about BotW, with the weapons, equipment, and health/stamina upgrades.

Microelectrode posted...
As the games went on, the world kept getting bigger, the side content increased, and the ways you interact with the world (transformation masks, sailing, wolf form, etc.) got richer. These are all positives. However, the main quest got small in comparison to the side content, and there became a clear distinction between what is optional and mandatory, often due to the guidance of characters and waypoints on the map. Breath of the Wild is the same. The grandest, most open and interactive overworld of any Zelda game, and yet I finished with 9% explored. Some of the handheld games (e.g. Oracles) retained the old formulas, but most went in the new direction.

All the games released between TWW and ALBW say hi. In TP-SS, the main quest was extremely linear and made up most of the gameplay, with the optional content being kept to a bare minimum.

Microelectrode posted...
While Breath of the Wild was certainly a fun game, it hasn't "returned" Zelda to its roots, as seems to be the claim. Zelda's roots were about exploring the overworld, yes - but so you could have the means to enter dungeons. Your main quest. Then, the formula changed to exploring the overworld for exploration's sake. Breath of the Wild, if anything, is cementing the new formula in place and taking Zelda further from its original design. An impressive world, but most of it optional, and clearly marked on your quest log as such.

No. Unlike the "new formula", BotW doesn't heavily restrict your access to the overworld. BotW is open world, while the Capcom games and the post-TWW games are all extremely linear and scripted.

User Info: honiberri

honiberri
1 week ago#13
Microelectrode posted...
Zeveria posted...
CarbonButtflap posted...
Zeveria posted...
Having replayed LoZ...there really isn't that much exploration. The first dungeons are close and require a little bit of it, but after that your hand is held and you're told where to go.

Wheres death mountain? Does the game tell you its on spectacle rock?


Yes. Forget if it was level 7 or 8...


An old man in a labyrinth says, “Spectacle Rock is the entrance to death.” You need to 1) know that refers to Death Mountain, 2) look for a structure on the mountain that resembles spectacles, helped a bit by a mysterious arrow nearby, and 3) blow up a wall (no cracks etc.)

Zelda games don’t do that anymore. Now, Zelda games do two things differently. One, they hold your hand through most of the main quest. This started particularly with Ocarina of Time. And two, the main quest is small compared to the side content. That, I think, started with Majora’s Mask.

Ocarina of Time was handholding, but at least most of the game consisted of finding and beating dungeons. If the games want to continue handholding the main quest, they should increase the number of dungeons. Less filler, more main content. But to return to the series “roots,” they would also return to the independent discovery of the dungeon entrances and required items themselves.

My grandpa saw something super important in the belly of a big white bird.
That is not dead which can eternal lie, but you wouldn't know it for the smell.

User Info: vermilion99

vermilion99
1 week ago#14
Zeveria posted...
Having replayed LoZ...there really isn't that much exploration. The first dungeons are close and require a little bit of it, but after that your hand is held and you're told where to go.


Your hand is not held in LoZ.

User Info: nurlen

nurlen
1 week ago#15
Zeveria posted...
Having replayed LoZ...there really isn't that much exploration. The first dungeons are close and require a little bit of it, but after that your hand is held and you're told where to go.

Jesus DL this may be the dumbest thing you've ever said. I hope you're being sarcastic.

Also... Told where to go in LoZ =//////////////////////= having your hand held
Marin's guardian

User Info: Microelectrode

Microelectrode
1 week ago#16
Thanks for replying. Mr Rudd, I agree that BOTW vastly improved the overworld and nonlinearity. But, your tasks are still clearly outlined. You have a world where you can do anything, but all you need to really do is run to the next glowing dot on your map. You can sometimes choose which dot to pursue, but whether the world is big or small, dense or barren, you’re still running to that dot.

To be truly like the original Zelda, BOTW would have almost no map waypoints. Most of the game would be figuring out how to get into dungeons, and you’d need about 40 dungeons given the world’s size. That’s pretty crazy, but you don’t need 40 full dungeons. Just a load of dungeon entrances. Most individual dungeons could be small. But your main overworld objective would be to figure out how to get in there.

To be honest, BOTW almost had it. The game has 120 shrines. Some tied to side quests, some require the player to solve environmental puzzles. The real thing that, I think, stopped BOTW being like the original Zelda is that all these shrines are optional stat upgrades. I skipped most of them except the ones right in my face. If BOTW made, say, 30 shrines tied to each divine beast, required you to find most (but not all) of them, then that would not only buff up the main quest, but return the goal of the overworld to finding dungeon entrances again.

User Info: Ramza1

Ramza1
1 week ago#17
IMHO, the only thing really missing from BOTW as a "return to its roots" is the amount of dungeon content. Maybe a little bit of overworld item gating since the original game did have a few odd raft/ ladder areas.

But aside from a very different ratio of dungeon to overworld content, the two games are very similar. BoTW has more npcs giving you easier hints and directions to get secrets and goodies, and overall it has way more side content, but those additions hardly disprove the whole "returning to its roots" idea.

Really would have loved a handful of really big and unique dungeons though.
I'm not sure how, I'm not sure why, but I'm almost certain that you owe me money!
Crudelitas posted...
That's certainly an interesting way to look at it. The divine beasts and the ways to reach them are quite telegraphed and straight forward. It would be cool if exploration and main quest where more intertwined.

Microelectrode posted...
Majora's Mask was a turning point. In that game, and in most games going forward, there is a great distinction between the optional and the mandatory, and as a result, exploration of the overworld is not integral to the main quest.

OoT does that too. Not sure why MM is supposed to be the turning point.

Because he's a majora's mask fanboy. They tend to be quite deluded.
miles davis fan

User Info: LumaRosalina

LumaRosalina
1 week ago#19
This is fine
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User Info: Zeveria

Zeveria
1 week ago#20
nurlen posted...
Also... Told where to go in LoZ =//////////////////////= having your hand held


I must be confusing the context then, since people seem to equate the two constantly and complain of instances of being told where to go or what to do as this is "hand holdy".

Ramza1 posted...
IMHO, the only thing really missing from BOTW as a "return to its roots" is the amount of dungeon content. Maybe a little bit of overworld item gating since the original game did have a few odd raft/ ladder areas.


There was plenty of gating in LoZ...the main difference compared to new Zelda games is rather than physical barriers, LoZ's gating was mostly done through information. If you were using a guide or had played the game before, sequence breaking is easily possible, but without this, it's highly unrealistic that you'll reach several key areas until you are given information from the previous area.
TP > OoT = MM > ST = SS = tWW > TFH > ALBW = PH > BOTW = MC > OoA > OoS > LA > FSA > FS > LoZ > AoL >>> aLttP
(edited 1 week ago)
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