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User Info: Manowarrior35

Manowarrior35
1 year ago#221
Nylarx posted...

We've been arguing for a while now, why don't I help you focus. Please refute these facts:
-You still get the same number of TMRs if you farm single TMRs vsing farming dupes
-You get your TMRs faster if you farm dupes

Thank you for your time and have a lovely day.

I didn't even realize Orlandeau can't equip Short Swords, wish I had him. Abel's Knife / Dual Wield are very similar both would boost your friend's damage by quite a bit through a full elemental spark chain much more than getting a single Excalibur (by the way if I was new I wouldn't fuse Cecil either, in fact I have 13 Cecils now so if I ever get Orlandeau I can grab multiple Excaliburs).

I know of strawmen, it's where someone takes the conversation to a very specific scenario and tries to attack that specific point rather than the actual points. I have not done this to you, I'm trying to make the broad point that the fast method is not faster in the long run and the OP should have a caveat to clarify this since this is a misunderstanding for many players even very long-time players. Instead you are the one that tried to say this guide was intended for a new player that is laser focused on getting a few TMR's for a very specific current event that will go away, a HIGHLY unlikely scenario, and then you stated that my own TM farming scenarios which were rather broad were absurd but you did not refute a single one of them. You also tried to say that I advise fusing dupes which isn't true, I was simply trying to stick to the logic of the "fast" tm farming method which fuses dupes. I also would not fuse Zidanes.

The 70% more Gil was from this https://brave-exvius.com/threads/why-you-shouldnt-farm-fuse-dupes-for-tms.11503/

-You still get the same number of TMRs if you farm single TMRs vsing farming dupes

We agreed on this. 5 Cecils, 5 Abels, 5 Charlotte, 5 Rasler, 5 Aiden. 28 days of straight TM farming and you will get all 5 TMR's if you fuse them together first and bring the 5 into the earth shrine, or if you farm them in groups of 5 and fuse them together.

-You get your TMRs faster if you farm dupes

How is this a fact? The burden of proof is on you. This is ONLY true if you are getting fewer than 5 TMR's and I believe most players are going to aim for more than just 5.
(edited 1 year ago)

User Info: Nylarx

Nylarx
1 year ago#222
Manowarrior35 posted...
The 70% more Gil was from this https://brave-exvius.com/threads/why-you-shouldnt-farm-fuse-dupes-for-tms.11503/


The math of the person in question is flimsy. He only considers the result of farming at 80-90%, and discounts the fact that half of them are 10gil. In order to work out the difference, you have to find out:
(Total drops farming from 0-100%)*(Average cost) - (Total drops farming from 0-16%)*(Average cost)
Do the proof yourself, as burden of proof is still on you. Note that this is in the 'best' case scenario where someone is farming 5 dupes at once. Will everyone have this? No - they most likely are farming only 2 dupes at once - saying that they will be farming 5 dupes consistently is also taking the argument to the extreme.

Manowarrior35 posted...
Instead you are the one that tried to say this guide was intended for a new player that is laser focused on getting a few TMR's for a very specific current event that will go away, a HIGHLY unlikely scenario

Are we even playing the same game? There are specific events that will go away EVERY week or two. Raids, King Mog events, special explorations - if you aren't strong enough you will miss out on those rewards. The 5 TMRs you farm at the end of 28 days wont help you, if you farm dupes you might be able to get it in time.

Manowarrior35 posted...
and then you stated that my own TM farming scenarios which were rather broad were absurd but you did not refute a single one of them.

I have always stated that your opinion that you should always have 5 unique TMRs farmed, fusing dupes into them is inferior to farming the dupes together. You're the one that's been turning a blind eye to my arguments. Just breathe, relax, and try again.

Manowarrior35 posted...
-You get your TMRs faster if you farm dupes

How is this a fact? The burden of proof is on you. This is ONLY true if you are getting fewer than 5 TMR's and I believe most players are going to aim for more than just 5.


The burden of proof is on me, but I have already proved it. Either:
a) You fuse the five Cecils, Abels, Charlottes, Raslers, Aidens together then grind them to 100% for 28 days.
b) You farm the five Cecils, Abels, Charlottes, Raslers, Aidens in batches. You then get a TMR on day 6, 11, 17, 23, 28.
This is what I mean by you get your TMRs faster, and I have been making this point consistently.

User Info: Nylarx

Nylarx
1 year ago#223
Manowarrior35 posted...
I know of strawmen, it's where someone takes the conversation to a very specific scenario and tries to attack that specific point rather than the actual points. I have not done this to you


Nylarx posted...
Nylarx posted...
Edit: Did not address the bonus items because they are rather marginal. If you get TMRs faster, as a newbie you can do more damage to the Raid boss, get more raid coins, use those raid coins to get more summons which can lead to more Gilsnappers. If you can already one shot the boss, try squeezing in a Paul and Pilfer to get more gil from the boss.

This is a generalised argument that says more damage = more raid coins, which can lead to more gil.
Manowarrior35 posted...
By that logic a new player would be better off getting Rune Blade and farming dupe Zidanes to get Dual Wield so he can chain with a friend Orlandeau to get more raid points and thus more Gil.

This is a strawman argument, by proposing the ridiculous situation where someone would farm and fuse multiple dupe Zidanes, which I had previously stated is such a precious TMR that you shouldn't fuse.


Is 'getting Rune Blade and farming dupe Zidanes to get Dual wield so he can chain with a friend Orlandeau to get more raid points and thus more Gil.' not a strawman argument? It is a ridiculously specific scenario in response to my own scenario...pretty much what you stated a strawman argument is.
(edited 1 year ago)

User Info: Manowarrior35

Manowarrior35
1 year ago#224
Nylarx posted...
new player would be better off getting Rune Blade and farming dupe Zidanes to get Dual Wield so he can chain with a friend Orlandeau to get more raid points and thus more Gil.

You posed the strawman, I just went with it and I'm glad you disagreed with fusing Zidanes, I'd disagree with fusing Cecils unless this new player had 6 so he can get a 2nd Excalibur. I never assume I'll get any single unit so I only consider what I have now. I think it's ridiculous to assume this new player has 5 Cecils and will fuse them all together just to get Excalibur which adds almost no additional damage. If your own Orlandeau has 450 Atk and you chain him with a friend that has 1100 Atk for whatever event is going on, you would be much better off with dual-wield. If anything I proposed a ridiculous scenario in response to your own ridiculous scenario.

I believe we are playing the same game, and most content can be beaten with simply bringing a strong friend, that's how I beat content when I started, King Mog events have always been able to be beaten with a single carry friend unit, this raid is the unique scenario where elemental / spark-chaining could allow even a new player to beat the toughest level so this is a very niche circumstance.

Your only claim that it's a faster method is because within the month you are getting some TMRs before others, but by the end of the month you have earned all 5. Most of us that TM farm are not new and will be fine waiting until the end of the month. In fact most of us will be better off ignoring the low-tier TMR's that we have dupes of and just farming individual units of the high-tier TMR's and waiting 5-additional days. I don't know about you but I have only once TM farmed dupes and that was Rikku. I also don't know of any guides that even advises new players to TM farm at all, this is something typically done after clearing the story.

As for the math for obtained Gil, it may be rough take it up with the guy that proposed it, that's not the main reason why I farm individual units, it's simply because my priorities are typically units I only have one or MAYBE two of. I'm more than fine with farming 5-units to 100% in 33 days instead of finding units I have 5-dupes of and farming those out to 100% in 28 days, that extra 5-days for TMR's that are much more useful is worth it.

One simple Caveat is all.
Note: Following the fast method it will still take about 28-days to obtain 5 TMR's at the cost of needing 25 units, the slow method will take about 33 days to obtain 5 TMR's at the cost of only needing 5 units, so in the long run the fast method is really not fast, it's main benefit is to obtain a single TMR in for a short term gain.
(edited 1 year ago)

User Info: Nylarx

Nylarx
1 year ago#225
Manowarrior35 posted...
You posed the strawman, I just went with it and I'm glad you disagreed with fusing Zidanes


Your memory is failing you now. Go back and reread our arguments. I just said getting the TMRs earlier = more raid coins. You were the one that then proposed the strawman argument, not me. Feel free to edit your previous post to remove it if you are so ashamed to admit it. Besides, you know how unlikely it is for someone to draw an Orlandeau, yet you keep referring to it in the scenarios you are proposing.

Manowarrior35 posted...
I believe we are playing the same game, and most content can be beaten with simply bringing a strong friend, that's how I beat content when I started, King Mog events have always been able to be beaten with a single carry friend unit, this raid is the unique scenario where elemental / spark-chaining could allow even a new player to beat the toughest level so this is a very niche circumstance.


Are you sure? Maybe you should see if a single powered up unit is enough to take down these stages or Elite Raid. Of course, you're ALWAYS going to get an Orlandeau to chain with your friend Orlandeau, who is happy to add someone who is sub 500 attack, right?

Manowarrior35 posted...
Your only claim that it's a faster method is because within the month you are getting some TMRs before others, but by the end of the month you have earned all 5.


Having them at the end of the month wont help you with events that end in 2 weeks time.

Manowarrior35 posted...
As for the math for obtained Gil, it may be rough take it up with the guy that proposed it, that's not the main reason why I farm individual units, it's simply because my priorities are typically units I only have one or MAYBE two of.

You're just daunted by the fact that you have to do the math. If you aren't willing to do it, then don't bring it up.

Manowarrior35 posted...
Note: Following the fast method it will still take 28-days to obtain 5 TMR's at the cost of needing 25 units, the slow method will take 33 days to obtain 5 TMR's at the cost of only needing 5 units, so in the long run there fast method is really not that fast, it's main benefit is to obtain a single TMR in for a short term gain.


You keep bringing this up, stating that the fast method is waiting for 5 of the same dupe then farming them. It isn't - all it says is that if you farm dupes together you can get that particular TMR sooner, and that is absolutely correct.

I'll say my stance on this as many times as I need to:
-Focus on end-game TMRs, and if you have dupes farm them together. If they are TMRs worth having multiples of or are of 5*, then farm them separately.

User Info: Manowarrior35

Manowarrior35
1 year ago#226
You actually have a point. I brought up the dual-wield and Orlandeau.

Your strawman was actually pointing out how someone could TM farm 5 dupes to get an item sooner in order to complete the current raid and get more gil-snappers (a highly unlikely scenario). I just considered actually applying your strawman so I came up with Orlandeau and Dual-Wield. I'd say it's not unusual for a new player to re-roll for one of the strong chainers and Orlandeau is the one I'd like to have the most. But the point for me was never about getting a TMR just to complete this raid on a higher level that was your strawman.

Anyways I also don't believe it's hard to find a strong player to carry a new player through the game, but that's just another strawman, and sure I said that but it was in response to you again assuming a new player is getting a specific TMR to complete other content. It MIGHT happen and that's the exception where someone would benefit from rushing a TMR but it's unlikely which is why it's yet another strawman. You keep trying to take the discussion on tangents. I can simply bring up an actual post I saw on facebook where a high rank player was showing off a team of 5x Guromo all at ~10% and he said he only TM farms when he has at least 5 units because he can't stand how slow TM farming is otherwise. But that's an aside as well, the point is simply that the fast method needs a caveat because there is a common misunderstanding in the community that the fast method is magically faster, instead of stating what should be obvious that this method focuses everything on 1 TMR but that they should typically focus on their TMR priorities instead. The TM priority might just be Rikku's Pouch someday and someone may have 5 Rikku's and only want one pouch, during this scenario it would make sense to farm 5 dupes but it's an exceptional circumstance, most of the time we should be farming individual units.
(edited 1 year ago)

User Info: Nylarx

Nylarx
1 year ago#227
Manowarrior35 posted...
I can simply bring up an actual post I saw on facebook where a high rank player was showing off a team of 5x Guromo all at ~10% and he said he only TM farms when he has at least 5 units because he can't stand how slow the process is otherwise


That is the opinion of one person. Unless we do a survey it is impossible to know what the general public does - anything said would be mere conjecture.

Lets bring this argument to a close.
Farming single TMRs: You get more gil from Trust Mastery drops.
Farming duplicate TMRs: You get specific TMRs faster, but overall TMR you gain remains the same.

I think it is perfectly valid if you are willing to forgo Gil for getting a specific TMR faster. I do not know how significant an amount of Gil it is, but I think both paths are valid, and that saying farming single TMRs is the only way to go is incorrect.

User Info: Manowarrior35

Manowarrior35
1 year ago#228
Nylarx posted...
Manowarrior35 posted...
I can simply bring up an actual post I saw on facebook where a high rank player was showing off a team of 5x Guromo all at ~10% and he said he only TM farms when he has at least 5 units because he can't stand how slow the process is otherwise


That is the opinion of one person. Unless we do a survey it is impossible to know what the general public does - anything said would be mere conjecture.

Lets bring this argument to a close.
Farming single TMRs: You get more gil from Trust Mastery drops.
Farming duplicate TMRs: You get specific TMRs faster, but overall TMR you gain remains the same.

I think it is perfectly valid if you are willing to forgo Gil for getting a specific TMR faster. I do not know how significant an amount of Gil it is, but I think both paths are valid, and that saying farming single TMRs is the only way to go is incorrect.

No need to mention increased gil IMHO, it will simply happen since I believe you and I are not much different when TM farming, we don't do it for the Gil and we farm based on priorities which is how most should be TM farming, I've farmed dupes once and I'm sure you farm individual units most of the time.

"Farming duplicate TMRs: You get specific TMRs faster, but overall TMR you gain remains the same."

This is enough, simply mentioning that overall TMR gain is unaffected to help remove the common misconception that I see all over the place. That alone should help people understand they should be farming based on their priorities.

User Info: Nylarx

Nylarx
1 year ago#229
Manowarrior35 posted...
This is enough, simply mentioning that overall TMR gain is unaffected to help remove the common misconception that I see all over the place. That alone should help people understand they should be farming based on their priorities.


Perhaps - TMR farming is very tedious - farming dupes to cut down the time to get to specific TMRs can offer the illusion of increased farming speed, and if it helps people through the farming process then so be it. I do urge that people should still prioritise TMRs based on their needs versus the number of dupes they have.

I can not wait for Chocobo expeditions to come to Global...
(edited 1 year ago)

User Info: Manowarrior35

Manowarrior35
1 year ago#230
Nylarx posted...
Manowarrior35 posted...
This is enough, simply mentioning that overall TMR gain is unaffected to help remove the common misconception that I see all over the place. That alone should help people understand they should be farming based on their priorities.


Perhaps - TMR farming is very tedious - farming dupes to cut down the time to get to specific TMRs can offer the illusion of increased farming speed, and if it helps people through the farming process then so be it. I do urge that people should still prioritise TMRs based on their needs versus the number of dupes they have.

I can not wait for Chocobo expeditions to come to Global...

Easier TM farming, I'm down.

I actually had 9 Aidens and wanted to get his robe, it was my #1 priority so I got one to 20% then put all 5 on the TM farming team. But then I blew some tickets and got Barbariccia, Rasler, Crowe. So I fused all the Aidens into 1 and had Aiden / Barbariccia / Rasler / Crowe / VotW. I think the 5 Aidens were farming for less than 1 day... Priorities change sooo much. I actually just got that Vestament of Mind last night finally. Personally I like choosing one specific unit and then theorycrafting that unit with the best gear I can obtain, then work towards that goal, the Vestament was for WWFina and so is the VotW TMR, but I just got Aileen (my first physical chainer, she's not Orlandeau but she will do), so now she's a priority and so is VotH... But I'm going to finish up all these awesome HP30% items as well, still need to finish Barbie / Crowe / 2 more Rasler / Rem...
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