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User Info: Nylarx

Nylarx
1 year ago#211
Manowarrior35 posted...
Munchie906 posted...

I feel stupid for actually reading this but you wrote "misinformation " which caught my eye.

It's not misinformation. If you need 5 really great tmrs then yes run them seperate, but if you need 1 tmr now then run five of the units. Misinformation would be if it was wrong, this isn't wrong, it's just aimed at a different goal. If for some reason i need a random tmr for an event it would be better to run all 5 and get it in a few days than to put it in a team to get in a month

No wonder you feel stupid , it was probably over your head.

I stated that if you need 1 TMR now to go with dupes. It's misinformation because it makes people think that they are getting TMR's faster by doing this when in fact it only adds 5% when fusing dupes. At this point in the game we get tons of free summon tickets so getting units to 100% just from fusing is entirely possible, why farm 5 Cecils when you can just keep fusing them? Instead farm out your rare and high priority TMR's.

So for Bahamut by this logic it's faster to TM farm 5 Skaha and then 5 more Skaha in order to get Dragon Killer +. But that's not true, for these common TMR's it's clearly faster to just keep fusing dupes and farm out rare units.

Some players literally only farm TMR's when they have 5 dupes because of poor misinformation as contained in this topic. Maybe it's not entirely "misinformation" but it's partial information at best, it doesn't explain how farming 5 dupes is not really faster because it's causing your other TMR's which are likely more valuable to be idled. Better advice is to TM farm for your priority TMR's.

This should be painfully obvious. If you want to get 5 TMR's and you farm out 5 Chizuru, 5 Cecil, 5 Celes, 5 Guys, 5 Amarants, you will get all 5 TMR's in 28 days. If you instead farm out 1 Chizuru, 1 Cecil, 1 Celes, 1 Guy, 1 Amarant then in 28 days they will all be at 80%, you can fuse the dupes to get all 5 TMR's at this point, there's no increase in speed either way, it takes 28 days to get 5 TMR's. Without any dupes you can instead farm out 5 higher priority TMR's and get them all to 80% in 28 days which is what most everyone should be doing instead of farming out dupes for lower-tier TMR's.


With your method, it takes 28 days for 5 TMRs, versus getting 1 TMR on day 6, day 11, day 17, day 22 and on day 28. Getting the TMRs faster means that you can use them faster - grinding the 5 dupes seems like a no-brainer. If you do summon, there is a non-zero % chance you can get a dupe for a character that has been completed which sucks, but at least you had use of your TMR earlier. If you're so scared of drawing dupes of TMRs you've already farmed, you would be unable to farm at all.

At the end of the day, just focus on your end-game TMRs, don't farm low tiers just because you have dupes, and if you do have dupes of characters with end-game TMRs feel free to farm them together.
(edited 1 year ago)

User Info: Manowarrior35

Manowarrior35
1 year ago#212
Nylarx posted...
Manowarrior35 posted...

With your method, it takes 28 days for 5 TMRs, versus getting 1 TMR on day 6, day 11, day 17, day 22 and on day 28. Getting the TMRs faster means that you can use them faster - grinding the 5 dupes seems like a no-brainer. If you do summon, there is a non-zero % chance you can get a dupe for a character that has been completed which sucks, but at least you had use of your TMR earlier. If you're so scared of drawing dupes of TMRs you've already farmed, you would be unable to farm at all.

At the end of the day, just focus on your end-game TMRs, don't farm low tiers just because you have dupes, and if you do have dupes of characters with end-game TMRs feel free to farm them together.

I've said that IF you need that one TMR ASAP that's the only time it makes sense to farm dupes (but this is VERY RARE, it would be a time-limited boss that you need a specific weapon to beat and if you are concerned this might happen then just save a bunch of trust moogles). Most of the time though you will only have a few of the best TMR units and you'll probably want more than one of that TMR, so it would be a mistake to farm 5 Amarant when you have Crowe and Rasler. No reason to wait to obtain 5 Raslers before you farm for his TMR.

The best advice is to just TM farm based on your priorities of what gear you want to obtain and don't worry about farming dupes since it only adds 5%.
(edited 1 year ago)

User Info: Nylarx

Nylarx
1 year ago#213
Manowarrior35 posted...
Nylarx posted...
Manowarrior35 posted...

With your method, it takes 28 days for 5 TMRs, versus getting 1 TMR on day 6, day 11, day 17, day 22 and on day 28. Getting the TMRs faster means that you can use them faster - grinding the 5 dupes seems like a no-brainer. If you do summon, there is a non-zero % chance you can get a dupe for a character that has been completed which sucks, but at least you had use of your TMR earlier. If you're so scared of drawing dupes of TMRs you've already farmed, you would be unable to farm at all.

At the end of the day, just focus on your end-game TMRs, don't farm low tiers just because you have dupes, and if you do have dupes of characters with end-game TMRs feel free to farm them together.

I've said that IF you need that one TMR ASAP that's the only time it makes sense to farm dupes (but this is VERY RARE, it would be a time-limited boss that you need a specific weapon to beat and if you are concerned this might happen then just save a bunch of trust moogles). Most of the time though you will only have a few of the best TMR units and you'll probably want more than one of that TMR, so it would be a mistake to farm 5 Amarant when you have Crowe and Rasler. No reason to wait to obtain 5 Raslers before you farm for his TMR.

The best advice is to just TM farm based on your priorities of what gear you want to obtain and don't worry about farming dupes since it only adds 5%.


All I did was propose a way to get the TMRs faster by grinding 5 units at a time instead of doing 1 of each based upon the flawed scenario that you proposed.

When would you need a TMR ASAP? Maybe if you were someone starting out looking at guides, like this one? The faster someone starting out can get Excalibur or one of the high end TMRs the better, if it is the tipping point that lets them do trials and eventually the weekly events.

I stand by what I posted: Focus on end-game TMRs, don't farm low tier TMRs just because you have dupes, and if you do have dupes of characters with end-game TMRs feel free to farm them together. (Only time I would advise against farming dupes then combining them is if they are limited time units, or a really good TMR that you may want multiples of).

User Info: Manowarrior35

Manowarrior35
1 year ago#214
Nylarx posted...
When would you need a TMR ASAP? Maybe if you were someone starting out looking at guides, like this one? The faster someone starting out can get Excalibur or one of the high end TMRs the better, if it is the tipping point that lets them do trials and eventually the weekly events.

I stand by what I posted: Focus on end-game TMRs, don't farm low tier TMRs just because you have dupes, and if you do have dupes of characters with end-game TMRs feel free to farm them together. (Only time I would advise against farming dupes then combining them is if they are limited time units, or a really good TMR that you may want multiples of).

Problem is that this is a common misunderstanding for many players, even high tier players. They honestly believe they are getting their TMR's much faster by farming dupes. Not going to deny that this could be perfect advice for new players since those first big Atk upgrades will make a huge difference, but I just wanted a disclaimer.

Some scenarios I mentioned may seem silly but there are players that will farm out 5 Amarant to get HP30% "faster" rather than farm out Rasler because that is painfully slow. I'm simply trying to clarify that it may seem painfully slow but it's also providing 5x as many TMR's plus, you get more bonus items when your units get in the high %, so even for a new player that's more items to sell to get more Gil. When you fuse dupes at only 16% they aren't getting many bonus items, yet another reason to just fuse your dupes first and then farm for unique TMR's.
(edited 1 year ago)

User Info: Nylarx

Nylarx
1 year ago#215
Manowarrior35 posted...
Nylarx posted...
When would you need a TMR ASAP? Maybe if you were someone starting out looking at guides, like this one? The faster someone starting out can get Excalibur or one of the high end TMRs the better, if it is the tipping point that lets them do trials and eventually the weekly events.

I stand by what I posted: Focus on end-game TMRs, don't farm low tier TMRs just because you have dupes, and if you do have dupes of characters with end-game TMRs feel free to farm them together. (Only time I would advise against farming dupes then combining them is if they are limited time units, or a really good TMR that you may want multiples of).

Problem is that this is a common misunderstanding for many players, even high tier players. They honestly believe they are getting their TMR's much faster by farming dupes. Not going to deny that this could be perfect advice for new players since those first big Atk upgrades will make a huge difference, but I just wanted a disclaimer.

Some scenarios I mentioned may seem silly but there are players that will farm out 5 Amarant to get HP30% "faster" rather than farm out Rasler because that is painfully slow. I'm simply trying to clarify that it may seem painfully slow but it's also providing 5x as many TMR's plus, you get more bonus items when your units get in the high %, so even for a new player that's more items to sell to get more Gil. When you fuse dupes at only 16% they aren't getting many bonus items, yet another reason to just fuse your dupes first and then farm for unique TMR's.


Farming separately doesn't provide 5x as many TMRs, especially if you are fusing your dupes together. No matter how you play around with it, each 1 NRG in Earth shrine will net you a total of 0.05% of trust. It only provides 5x as many TMRs if you farm the 5 dupes separately, and then it takes 5 times as long.

Let me reiterate: With 5 dupes you will either get 1 TMR in 28/5 days, for a total of 5 TMRs in 28 days, or if you fuse them then farm separately you'll get 5 TMRs in 28 days, the speed will not change.

I need to say this again: Farming with dupes doesn't reduce the number of TMRs you are making per run, and will in fact accelerate you towards your desired TMRs.

But, there are exceptions of certain units I would be hesitant to fuse. These are the units I would grind from 0-100%:
-Gengi Glove
-Dual Wield (You want at least 2-3. This can be supplemented with Aqua Blade/Bowie Knife if those are appropriate for you)
-Limited Units if the TMRs are good (Pod153s, Mechanical Hearts, Jake's Pirate Rings are all so good)
-All 5* base units because of future 7* potential

You would like multiple copies of Crowe's and Rasler's, but fusing them isn't too big a detriment. For me, I'm currently farming two Raslers together, as I have another two waiting in the wings.

Edit: Did not address the bonus items because they are rather marginal. If you get TMRs faster, as a newbie you can do more damage to the Raid boss, get more raid coins, use those raid coins to get more summons which can lead to more Gilsnappers. If you can already one shot the boss, try squeezing in a Paul and Pilfer to get more gil from the boss.
(edited 1 year ago)

User Info: Manowarrior35

Manowarrior35
1 year ago#216
Nylarx posted...
You would like multiple copies of Crowe's and Rasler's, but fusing them isn't too big a detriment. For me, I'm currently farming two Raslers together, as I have another two waiting in the wings.

Edit: Did not address the bonus items because they are rather marginal. If you get TMRs faster, as a newbie you can do more damage to the Raid boss, get more raid coins, use those raid coins to get more summons which can lead to more Gilsnappers. If you can already one shot the boss, try squeezing in a Paul and Pilfer to get more gil from the boss.

By that logic a new player would be better off getting Rune Blade and farming dupe Zidanes to get Dual Wield so he can chain with a friend Orlandeau to get more raid points and thus more Gil. Odd logic. I wasn't speaking specifically about right now, TM farming is a painfully slow process and all players can use more Gil.

Anyways a simple disclaimer that mentions that the only gain even with the "Fast" method is 5% from fusing each duplicate unit since in the long-run even if you had 5 dupes each time and fused them all together it will still take 28 days to obtain 5 unique TMR's where the slow method will take 33 days to obtain 5 unique TMR's and does not require fusing even a single dupe.

But I think you may be biased, you seem to have more units than most. I got SUPER lucky to have obtained 3x Raslers, I've been playing since launch and still have not seen a single Grace and I've gotten 2 Gafgarrions total. Units are not as common as you may think they are. The only time I've ever farmed a dupe was 2 Rikku's that I fused into 1 to get Rikku's Pouch because a friend and I wanted to try the stone-wall cheese using Xon against him.

I can provide more reasons why you should fuse duplicate units instead of farming them.
a) The math is easier. No need to add up %'s to determine how much is needed to obtain a TMR.
b) If it's a common unit you will probably obtain more over time, just keep fusing them and you may get the TMR without ever farming a single one.
c) Future FP rewards may include common unit trust moogles.
d) As I said before, you will earn more Gil by selling the Trust Bonus items you obtain by farming high % units.
e) You can focus on your highest priority Trust Mastery Rewards which may make some of the common TMR's obsolete such that you won't even want to farm for that Omnirod even if you have 15 Arcs.

The only reasons to farm duplicate units and then fuse is:
a) This one TMR is your top priority and you only want 1 of this item and happen to have duplicate units available to obtain it that are not 5* base (Rikku's Pouch is a good example).
b) There is a current time-limited challenge and a specific item can allow you to beat it.

So it almost never makes sense to follow the "Fast" method IMHO.
(edited 1 year ago)

User Info: Nylarx

Nylarx
1 year ago#217
Manowarrior35 posted...

By that logic a new player would be better off getting Rune Blade and farming dupe Zidanes to get Dual Wield so he can chain with a friend Orlandeau to get more raid points and thus more Gil. Odd logic.


I feel you are just bringing up Strawman arguments just to make your point. I already mentioned that Dual Wield is one of the few that you shouldn't fuse. If you can farm up an Excalibur quickly, it'll make getting more raid coins in raid easier. The extra gil you get from TMR farming would be balanced out by actually being able to do other content faster.

Manowarrior35 posted...
But I think you may be biased, you seem to have more units than most. I got SUPER lucky to have obtained 3x Raslers, I've been playing since launch and still have not seen a single Grace and I've gotten 2 Gafgarrions total. Units are not as common as you may think they are. The only time I've ever farmed a dupe was 2 Rikku's that I fused into 1 to get Rikku's Pouch because a friend and I wanted to try the stone-wall cheese using Xon against him.


I am F2P, you get enough summons that you will get a dupe here and there. Your recommendation is to fuse all the dupes into your main and farm it, my recommendation is to farm them together IF they are what you want to use endgame.

Manowarrior35 posted...
I can provide more reasons why you should fuse duplicate units instead of farming them.
a) The math is easier. No need to add up %'s to determine how much is needed to obtain a TMR.
b) If it's a common unit you will probably obtain more over time, just keep fusing them and you may get the TMR without ever farming a single one.
c) Future FP rewards may include common unit trust moogles.
d) As I said before, you will earn more Gil by selling the Trust Bonus items you obtain by farming high % units.
e) You can focus on your highest priority Trust Mastery Rewards which may make some of the common TMR's obsolete such that you won't even want to farm for that Omnirod even if you have 15 Arcs.


a) You get a rough idea what % your units should be, then when it gets close you keep an eye on them. In fact, when I am 1-2% away I keep a tally of the TMR gains I get, it's actually pretty fun.
b) If it is a common unit with a great TMR you may still want to prioritise it (Zidane). If it is a terrible TMR why are you bothering?
c) We shouldn't do things because of what may happen in the future. We don't even have a date for when this will happen.
d) The amount you get isn't much to talk about.
e) As said before, you want to gun for your prioritised TMRs, and ignore the terrible TMRs out there.

Your stance is that you should always fuse your dupes, and farm 5 unique TMRs. My stance is that if you have a dupe of someone you're farming you should farm them together, and that end of the day you will have the same number of TMRs, just that you got half of them earlier.

User Info: Manowarrior35

Manowarrior35
1 year ago#218
Nylarx posted...

Your stance is that you should always fuse your dupes, and farm 5 unique TMRs. My stance is that if you have a dupe of someone you're farming you should farm them together, and that end of the day you will have the same number of TMRs, just that you got half of them earlier.

First, I didn't strawman you, that Excalibur will be pitiful for a new player, dual-wield is going to be the key to dealing big damage since it will boost up your friend's damage by about 350%. Excalibur over Rune Blade would only add like 1% more damage. If you look at your comment, you proposed the strawman in the first place, I simply pointed out your flawed logic. I was not discussing one tiny specific situation where a new player obtained Orlandeau right now and getting an Excalibur would allow farming a higher difficulty on the current raid. That's as strawman as possible, it assumes someone got Orlandeau and 5 Cecils and just started, I simply assumed he also pulled 5 Abels.

Anyways I actually do not recommend fusing all of your dupes together, the "Fast" method is where the idea of fusing dupes arrives, I'm simply trying to point out that in the long-run (once you start working on your 5th TMR) it will not be any faster than fusing the units first and then farming them all out at the same time (the slow method). My recommendation to ALL players is to be patient and TM farm the slow way. You even said it was an unlikely scenario where the slow method is as fast as the fast method, I hope you were joking since the only time that's an unlikely scenario is if a player joined / farmed / quit in a couple of weeks. Most of us are going to be farming for more than 5 TMR's, probably 50 so the slow method is viable for almost everyone that is serious about FFBE. For TMR's that are not a priority keep dupes of those units at least 5 (maybe even more I farmed out 6 Ingus and never fuse 5* base units) so you can rush that TMR someday if the need arises, for very low priority TMR's just fuse your units, but you should never follow the fast method.

In fact here's probably the biggest reason to stick with the slow method.

f) You can farm your TMR's based on your priorities instead of based on having dupes of a specific unit.

Oh and finally, you're getting about 70% more Gil from selling additional items (they are usually more rare and more valuable items) when you farm the slow method and this adds up to several MILLION Gil. It's significant.
(edited 1 year ago)

User Info: Nylarx

Nylarx
1 year ago#219
Manowarrior35 posted...
First, I didn't strawman you, that Excalibur will be pitiful for a new player, dual-wield is going to be the key to dealing big damage since it will boost up your friend's damage by about 350%. Excalibur over Rune Blade would only add like 1% more damage.


Dual-wield isn't going to boost your friend's damage by '350%' unless you're chaining with exactly the same unit, with exactly the same element. The Excalibur is just one of the high end TMRs that is possible to get multiple units for.

Manowarrior35 posted...
If you look at your comment, you proposed the strawman in the first place, I simply pointed out your flawed logic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Please read up on what a strawman argument is.

Nylarx posted...
Edit: Did not address the bonus items because they are rather marginal. If you get TMRs faster, as a newbie you can do more damage to the Raid boss, get more raid coins, use those raid coins to get more summons which can lead to more Gilsnappers. If you can already one shot the boss, try squeezing in a Paul and Pilfer to get more gil from the boss.

This is a generalised argument that says more damage = more raid coins, which can lead to more gil.
Manowarrior35 posted...
By that logic a new player would be better off getting Rune Blade and farming dupe Zidanes to get Dual Wield so he can chain with a friend Orlandeau to get more raid points and thus more Gil.

This is a strawman argument, by proposing the ridiculous situation where someone would farm and fuse multiple dupe Zidanes, which I had previously stated is such a precious TMR that you shouldn't fuse.

Manowarrior35 posted...
That's as strawman as possible, it assumes someone got Orlandeau and 5 Cecils and just started, I simply assumed he also pulled 5 Abels.

Wow, did you even read your own last comment? When did Zidane mysteriously transform into Abel? (The Bowie Knife wouldn't even work with Orlandeau btw, unless you farm Equip S Sword, another low tier TMR)

User Info: Nylarx

Nylarx
1 year ago#220
Manowarrior35 posted...
Anyways I actually do not recommend fusing all of your dupes together, the "Fast" method is where the idea of fusing dupes arrives, I'm simply trying to point out that in the long-run (once you start working on your 5th TMR) it will not be any faster than fusing the units first and then farming them all out at the same time (the slow method).

Nylarx posted...
Let me reiterate: With 5 dupes you will either get 1 TMR in 28/5 days, for a total of 5 TMRs in 28 days, or if you fuse them then farm separately you'll get 5 TMRs in 28 days, the speed will not change.

I am agreeing with you. You get the same number of TMRs regardless if you fuse the unit first and farm, or if you farm multiple dupes at the same time. However, my point of contention is that you get them all on...
Nylarx posted...
With your method, it takes 28 days for 5 TMRs, versus getting 1 TMR on day 6, day 11, day 17, day 22 and on day 28.


Manowarrior35 posted...
In fact here's probably the biggest reason to stick with the slow method.

f) You can farm your TMR's based on your priorities instead of based on having dupes of a specific unit.

Nylarx posted...
At the end of the day, just focus on your end-game TMRs, don't farm low tiers just because you have dupes, and if you do have dupes of characters with end-game TMRs feel free to farm them together.

You still can farm TMRs based on your priorities if you use the dupe method. If you reread my posts, time and time again I say not to farm low-tier TMRs just because you have dupes, BUT if you have a dupe of a high tier TMR then farm them together - you'll get them faster which will help accelerate you to end game. I'm not asking you to wait for 5 dupes of the same character before you start farming.

Manowarrior35 posted...
Oh and finally, you're getting about 70% more Gil from selling additional items (they are usually more rare and more valuable items) when you farm the slow method and this adds up to several MILLION Gil. It's significant.

Please show the math that you got to get '70% more Gil', as well as the time-frame required to rack up this several MILLION gil. These figures are misleading. As 'You get more gil with the slow method' is your argument, the burden of proof will fall upon you. Please factor in the gil you will be get from getting TMRs faster as well...those calculations you'll have to do seem quite gruelling ><

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(law)

We've been arguing for a while now, why don't I help you focus. Please refute these facts:
-You still get the same number of TMRs if you farm single TMRs vsing farming dupes
-You get your TMRs faster if you farm dupes

Thank you for your time and have a lovely day.
(edited 1 year ago)
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