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  3. The climax of this event bothers me... (Spoilers)

User Info: CorruptedSoul12

CorruptedSoul12
3 months ago#51
Personally I think its lame to go "Oh they could have put any other servants in here instead of Mata Hari and Scheherazade" Of course you could, with a cast as big as FGO's I'm sure you could have thrown a dart and got another duo that in your opinion could have worked better.

But like why ignore the good stuff that those two brought to this event? Its always nice seeing Mata Hari and Scheherazade needed a event where she's able to show off her growth as a character from her interlude.

I like this event because of what those two brought as a characters, not because Kama is here and has well documented reasons that she's a idiot.

User Info: farson135

farson135
3 months ago#52
CorruptedSoul12 posted...
Personally I think its lame to go "Oh they could have put any other servants in here instead of Mata Hari and Scheherazade" Of course you could, with a cast as big as FGO's I'm sure you could have thrown a dart and got another duo that in your opinion could have worked better.
Actually, no. I outright stated that it would have been better to have a servant specifically for this event. And I also pointed out Bedivere, whose story is key in that event. I could also point to Salem, and Sanson's entire arc for a character who wasn't purpose built for the story, but still fit in well.

With a cast a big as FGO's, and with the almost limitless possibilities within the story, there is no reason to shove borderline random characters into a storyline.

But like why ignore the good stuff that those two brought to this event? Its always nice seeing Mata Hari and Scheherazade needed a event where she's able to show off her growth as a character from her interlude.
Is Mata Hari better in Salem, or here? I think everyone would agree that Salem was a far better story for her. Just shoving a character into an event does nothing for me. Their presence actually needs to be "good" for the story.

As for Scheherazade, there are several problems with that argument.

First and foremost, not everyone has her, and therefore not everyone has seen her Interlude. If your compliment is based on that, then that doesn't apply to everyone. In fact, her characterization would seem weird.

Second of all, again, she doesn't have much of a place, and she doesn't add much to the story. She's better than in Agartha, but that's not saying much.

Third, her "growth" in this event is her power of friendship speech (which is just annoying), and, frankly, ignoring her more annoying character aspects.

And let's be clear, I was very excited when I learned that Scheherazade was a servant. I should be at the top of the list of people happy that she is getting character growth, but so far it isn't doing anything for me. This is not the Scheherazade from myth.
FGO- Name: Sarah, ID: 095,432,810

User Info: CorruptedSoul12

CorruptedSoul12
3 months ago#53
farson135 posted...
Actually, no. I outright stated that it would have been better to have a servant specifically for this event. And I also pointed out Bedivere, whose story is key in that event. I could also point to Salem, and Sanson's entire arc for a character who wasn't purpose built for the story, but still fit in well.
Mata Hari, Scheherazade, and Yagyu were important to the event, they just didn't have as main of a focus as Parvati or Kiara who were specific to the event. So you already got what you wanted there why say then that those three didn't fit well?

With a cast a big as FGO's, and with the almost limitless possibilities within the story, there is no reason to shove borderline random characters into a storyline.
But they aren't random? Kama said she picked Mata Hari and Scheherazade because she thought it would be easier for them to tempt Master. They were successful in getting Gordolf deeper into Ooku so its not like that notion isn't backed up by nothing.

Is Mata Hari better in Salem, or here? I think everyone would agree that Salem was a far better story for her. Just shoving a character into an event does nothing for me. Their presence actually needs to be "good" for the story.
What's your metric for good then? they need to make a contribution to the stories plot? Both Mata Hari, Yagyu, and Scheherazade did that, with their powers.

As for Scheherazade, there are several problems with that argument.

First and foremost, not everyone has her, and therefore not everyone has seen her Interlude. If your compliment is based on that, then that doesn't apply to everyone. In fact, her characterization would seem weird.
Every person I see complaining about Scheherazade its always the same s*** about her phobia of death. So in Ooku despite saying her phobia is still there, she said she is still going to help Master and Chaldea because people she cares about were abducted by Kama.
She's literally moving past her most common complaint. So no I don't think her characterization is weird. I think its a natural progression if you go by Agartha, Summer 2, and then Ooku.

Second of all, again, she doesn't have much of a place, and she doesn't add much to the story. She's better than in Agartha, but that's not saying much.
She was able to give enough power to Lady Kasuga at the ending to allow her enough power to banish Kama through help of Mata Hari and Yagyu. So that's downplaying her contribution.

Third, her "growth" in this event is her power of friendship speech (which is just annoying), and, frankly, ignoring her more annoying character aspects.
It's only annoying if you aren't giving her a chance, and what does it matter if its a power of friendship speech? Do you tune out whenever those happen? isn't that more on you for just not liking that trope?

And let's be clear, I was very excited when I learned that Scheherazade was a servant. I should be at the top of the list of people happy that she is getting character growth, but so far it isn't doing anything for me. This is not the Scheherazade from myth.
Blame Agartha for giving Scheherazade s*** to work with, rather then exploring her myth and giving her some character development it decided to give make everyone antagonistic to her over something she could never have known about.

Also of course it isn't Scheherazade from the myth its a version of her that despite having mostly having the same origin. Her writer decided to focus on a aspect a lot of people would have tended to overlook being locked in with a psychotic king for 1001 nights.

I like Scheherazade because despite having major faults she at least tries to work past them, though help of Nitocris and her master. I hope this doesn't come off as rude or anything, but she's been dealing with negative stigma ever since Agartha and she finally got development everyone can see, yet people are still saying its not enough or just flat out ignoring her contributions.

User Info: TalesOfGod

TalesOfGod
3 months ago#54
I'll be honest, I didn't feel bad about missing the event due to how strange the plot is. I am salty about missing out on Kama as I do like the character but the plot is really strange, even by these standards.

User Info: meimeidesu

meimeidesu
3 months ago#55
TalesOfGod posted...
I'll be honest, I didn't feel bad about missing the event due to how strange the plot is. I am salty about missing out on Kama as I do like the character but the plot is really strange, even by these standards.
I don't think it's strange, it's pretty standard FGO, I think there's just a starvation of plot advancing content, to go full on in this.

This boils down to
"You know this cake is kinda weird"
"What you talking about, we're making pound cake, and this needs exact exact EXACT amounts"
"Um there's more to cake then pound cake, and this isn't even a good pound cake"
"STFU, you're sacrilegious to fate, everyone knows the pound cakes needs these exact ratios, or it won't be a pound cake of the end times"
"But when did this turn into a pound cake?"

This is just my own opinion, but, there's a reason they teach you in writing class the more drafts you write roughly equals the more the letter rank goes up. Rolling the ball around a few more times orangize the words much better then the previous drafts, and thus better for digestible information. Yet some people have to argue the opposite, of some "it's just perfect the way it is, and anyone that thinks different is a heretic.

From the start it was writing bullcrap, of the 8th grade edgy side, so there's going to be huge leaps in logic. The choice of always going "mind blown last scene", is going to be rough.

The question is always how much ultimately did the writers get away with.

User Info: Kneekicker

Kneekicker
3 months ago#56
meimeidesu posted...
From the start it was writing bullcrap, of the 8th grade edgy side, so there's going to be huge leaps in logic. The choice of always going "mind blown last scene", is going to be rough.
The only leaps in logic going on here are the mental gymnastics going on in your head.
You think the story is bullcrap, fair enough. You start asserting to others about the story being bullcrap, you're refuted at every turn without being able to defend your stance. Why do you think it's 8th grade writing? Rather than returning to your arguments, you just run off and half-heartedly back whoever else might have stances that correspond with yours.

xhominid posted...
I feel you are just hopping on this train because you have shown your disatisfaction of FGO so often
3DS Friend Code: 3179-6117-3933 | PSN: ansonip2000 | Steam: Kneekicker
Official Take-Mikazuchi of the Shin Megami Tensei IV board.

User Info: farson135

farson135
3 months ago#57
CorruptedSoul12 posted...
Mata Hari, Scheherazade, and Yagyu were important to the event, they just didn't have as main of a focus as Parvati or Kiara who were specific to the event. So you already got what you wanted there why say then that those three didn't fit well?
First of all, you are the one who decided to add Yagyu, not me. So stop acting like I did.

Second of all, they weren't that important to the event. Again, they could easily be replaced.

But they aren't random? Kama said she picked Mata Hari and Scheherazade because she thought it would be easier for them to tempt Master.
Again, Shuten, Circe, etc. Also, it doesn't matter to her plan whether or not they succeed, so why bother?

"Plot reasons" are not necessarily good reasons.

I want you to read the above line a few more times. And then keep reading it until you understand the basic fact that I understood the story, I just didn't "buy" everything it was saying. "Hand of the author" and all that.

What's your metric for good then? they need to make a contribution to the stories plot? Both Mata Hari, Yagyu, and Scheherazade did that, with their powers.
They need to make a unique contribution, and make their mark within the story. That is, they must belong in this story.

Mata Hari is perfect for Salem. Putting aside her abilities (which are used multiple times throughout the story), she was a scapegoat in life, and her part in Salem was a reflection of that, among other things. Plus, she had multiple character moments, harkening back to her own life, which gave her big scene needed weight. She cannot be easily replaced in Salem.

Every person I see complaining about Scheherazade its always the same s*** about her phobia of death. So in Ooku despite saying her phobia is still there, she said she is still going to help Master and Chaldea because people she cares about were abducted by Kama.
She's literally moving past her most common complaint. So no I don't think her characterization is weird. I think its a natural progression if you go by Agartha, Summer 2, and then Ooku.
Without the character arc to back it up.

And it is not a "natural progression" at all. This was a fear that caused her to almost destroy humanity (which never made any sense). And let's remember that as a servant, she generally doesn't remember things that happened to her during a summoning. Meaning, she doesn't remember Agartha. She could read about it, but without her Interlude you have to assume that.

As for Summer 2, again, you are relying on an optional storyline that many people have not seen. What's more, she isn't even that noteworthy in that event. There are an entire army of characters in that event, and her contribution is primarily comic relief (which somehow doesn't manage to sabotage her team's efforts, but it is a primarily comedic event).

Finally, even her character progression is annoying. Where is the polymath who stood up against her king, and saved her people? A generic "power of friendship" line is the best she can do?

She was able to give enough power to Lady Kasuga at the ending to allow her enough power to banish Kama through help of Mata Hari and Yagyu. So that's downplaying her contribution.
Your bias is showing.

From me; "she doesn't add much to the story". Not "nothing", but much. Giving her a handful of moments in the end to justify her existence in the story is exactly what I was talking about in my OP. It seems like the writer had the idea for a scene, but couldn't come up with the connective tissue to make it work.

She exists for the scenes she happens to be relevant in (that is, when Guda(ko) needs her). What I want is for her to organically exist within the story.

It's only annoying if you aren't giving her a chance
Again, your bias is showing.

"Blame Agartha for giving Scheherazade s*** to work with, ...."

I have, but all of that is irrelevant.

I hope this doesn't come off as rude or anything, but she's been dealing with negative stigma ever since Agartha and she finally got development everyone can see, yet people are still saying its not enough or just flat out ignoring her contributions.
And at the risk of me sounding rude, not all characterization is equal;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzfXxkHrIBM&ab_channel=ZeldaUniverse

"Existing" is not a high bar to set.
FGO- Name: Sarah, ID: 095,432,810

User Info: Balthanon

Balthanon
3 months ago#58
farson135 posted...
They need to make a unique contribution, and make their mark within the story. That is, they must belong in this story.

Mata Hari is perfect for Salem. Putting aside her abilities (which are used multiple times throughout the story), she was a scapegoat in life, and her part in Salem was a reflection of that, among other things. Plus, she had multiple character moments, harkening back to her own life, which gave her big scene needed weight. She cannot be easily replaced in Salem.

...

So... you're saying that the Servant who's _defining_ characteristic, the reason she's actually famous, is that she was in a harem for 1001 nights, wasn't the most appropriate choice for a... harem. (As Kama sees the Ooku, obviously Kasuga doesn't agree with that definition.)

And the Servant who was known in life for seducing her targets (which neither Circe or Shuten are really known for primarily, even if Shuten comes off that way) wasn't appropriate either.

If you don't see a reason for Kama to even make an attempt at this, fine, I'll agree to disagree, but... disputing the choices she made when her decision in the story was to make an attempt at getting Ritsuka to succumb (willingly, I felt), doesn't really make sense. They were eminently reasonable choices for attempting to bypass Ritsuba's guard.

Yes, you could potentially replace them with any pretty Servant, but both had a focus in life that made them a way better fit here than 70-80% of the Servant choices we see in every singularity. They were as appropriate a choice as I've seen in any FGO story honestly.

farson135 posted...
As for Summer 2, again, you are relying on an optional storyline that many people have not seen.

Relying on an optional storyline to complement an optional storyline seems appropriate... Also, I'd venture to say that most have probably seen Summer 2. At least judging by most discussions I see there are way more veterans who have been around at least that long than new players.
Fate/Grand Order: Ritsuba - 241,049,270

User Info: xhominid

xhominid
3 months ago#59
farson135 posted...
Is Mata Hari better in Salem, or here? I think everyone would agree that Salem was a far better story for her. Just shoving a character into an event does nothing for me. Their presence actually needs to be "good" for the story.

Subjectivity again...

farson135 posted...
As for Scheherazade, there are several problems with that argument.

First and foremost, not everyone has her, and therefore not everyone has seen her Interlude. If your compliment is based on that, then that doesn't apply to everyone. In fact, her characterization would seem weird.

Second of all, again, she doesn't have much of a place, and she doesn't add much to the story. She's better than in Agartha, but that's not saying much.

Third, her "growth" in this event is her power of friendship speech (which is just annoying), and, frankly, ignoring her more annoying character aspects.

And let's be clear, I was very excited when I learned that Scheherazade was a servant. I should be at the top of the list of people happy that she is getting character growth, but so far it isn't doing anything for me. This is not the Scheherazade from myth.

*Sigh*

  1. You can literally watch the Interludes of characters you don't have on Youtube, they are all over the place in both Japanese Sub and Official NA translation. That's no real excuse to believe it shouldn't matter for you.
  2. "She doesn't have a place in the story" ...Wut? Scheherazade was one of Kama's picks for the very obvious reason to influence you to fall willingly. She helped you get past one of the floors without being subject to the worst of breaking the Precepts and helped Kasuga take control of Ooku, ultimately winning the battle. What more do you want at this rate?
  3. ...Dude, she had growth since Summer 2 of the entire reason she joined Nitocris was to make up for what happened in Agartha. Her Interlude explicitly has her running herself ragged to see just how massive Romani's sacrifice was and once she got the full gist, her first instinct is to beg for death for besmirching so badly(even unknowingly). And in this, she literally values her friends so badly, she feels it would be worse than death to live on and they end up in their cruel fates and even she herself is surprised she isn't so fearful of death in comparison.
I feel like that you guys SERIOUSLY overdo it in your hatred of how FGO went with Scheherazade that you practically miss all of her good points to b**** how she isn't like she is in myth(even though you can say that for a number of Heroic Spirits like Lu Bu...)

http://i.imgur.com/Ktn6GvQ.gif http://i.imgur.com/JHYvbO5.gif http://i.imgur.com/HiIAHMi.gif http://i.imgur.com/Y8ib6bK.gif http://i.imgur.com/yoCDP7y.gif

User Info: farson135

farson135
3 months ago#60
Balthanon posted...
So... you're saying that the Servant who's _defining_ characteristic, the reason she's actually famous, is that she was in a harem for 1001 nights, wasn't the most appropriate choice for a... harem. (As Kama sees the Ooku, obviously Kasuga doesn't agree with that definition.)
Scheherazade wasn't in a harem in any recognizable sense.

Besides which, if you consider that her defining characteristic, I think that says more about you than anything.

Scheherazade was a polymath who read the majority of her father's library. She is also brave, and she volunteered to be the kings next sacrifice in order to save her kingdom. Her intelligence, and bravery are what stand out to me. Neither of those are really on display with her character.

Nor does a "harem" play a part in her characterization in FGO.

And the Servant who was known in life for seducing her targets (which neither Circe or Shuten are really known for primarily, even if Shuten comes off that way) wasn't appropriate either.
Circe is known for exactly that, and Shuten is a different character in FGO, and clearly very seductive.

Also, if we are talking about previous storylines, how about Mata Hari revealing in Salem that most of how she is portrayed in FGO is based on people's fictional depictions of her, rather than her real life? Way to move away from what was an actually interesting character development.

I never liked Mata Hari before Salem because she was just a play on how Mata Hari was portrayed in the media. In the real world, she was abused, ridiculed, and used as a scapegoat by a society that didn't care about her. I found her portrayal rather distasteful, but Salem began to change my mind. So much for that.

If you don't see a reason for Kama to even make an attempt at this, fine, I'll agree to disagree, but... disputing the choices she made when her decision in the story was to make an attempt at getting Ritsuka to succumb (willingly, I felt), doesn't really make sense. They were eminently reasonable choices for attempting to bypass Ritsuba's guard.
In other words, they could be replaced with anyone who could "bypass Ritsuba's guard" (basically, be a servant, or not suspicious) and be reasonably seductive. That's not a high bar. Hell, Scheherazade shouldn't really be seductive at all. The character designer just decided to make her resemble his fetish.

Relying on an optional storyline to complement an optional storyline seems appropriate...
No. It is a terrible idea.
FGO- Name: Sarah, ID: 095,432,810
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