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  3. Rabbit's Reviews #253: Nightingale (Santa) (4* Archer)
Tressert posted...
Personally I think that if you can't loop (or at least blitz) and you can't stall then you're not in good shape, and Night doesn't really contribute to either of those. She has guts I guess.

Damage amping alone isn't a very big deal, and the other stuff she offers is either trickier to use (starburst on an active NP...?) or more situational (as was stated, debuffs tend to be more dangerous in bulk and Night has no way to deal with that). The fact that Night has "four different kinds of utility" is kind of the problem- she has four different kinds of utility but only goes one foot in on each of them to the point that none of them are super worthwhile. Debuff removal, for example, as a concept is valuable, but not when it's gimped down to such a degree.

I could see her being pretty nice for Parvati or maybe Dantes teams. Parv doesn't really need the help looping but is lacking in damage. Dantes... doesn't really need either but more damage is more damage.
I was considering using her for my NA account. Since I have NP1 Dantes and my last 3 target SSR's have taken over 1k SQ each, I don't really foresee pulling for NP2, her damage amping combined with a single Skadi (for if I fail her banner during the 3rd Ani) should be quite nice. With her, Chiron and Chen, I might be able to work something halfway decent if I can figure out how to get him looping.
If that's how it's going to be... I'll snuff them all out! Every last one of your sickening, happy little reasons for living!
Tressert posted...
Personally I think that if you can't loop (or at least blitz) and you can't stall then you're not in good shape, and Night doesn't really contribute to either of those. She has guts I guess.

Damage amping alone isn't a very big deal, and the other stuff she offers is either trickier to use (starburst on an active NP...?) or more situational (as was stated, debuffs tend to be more dangerous in bulk and Night has no way to deal with that). The fact that Night has "four different kinds of utility" is kind of the problem- she has four different kinds of utility but only goes one foot in on each of them to the point that none of them are super worthwhile. Debuff removal, for example, as a concept is valuable, but not when it's gimped down to such a degree.

I could see her being pretty nice for Parvati or maybe Dantes teams. Parv doesn't really need the help looping but is lacking in damage. Dantes... doesn't really need either but more damage is more damage.


Serious question, when was the last time you got bulk-debuffed in a way that was relevant? Much more common, IME, is to get stunned or NP sealed independent of everything else. Taking care of those things is very valuable.

As for her utility, I wasn't thinking of her stars actually. She has...

-Debuff cleanse.
-Buff purge.
-Buff removal res.
-Healing.

It's hard to say she only does these things mildly considering she has two forms of buff purge, nobody gives more than 100% buff removal resistance, and only three characters (Asclepius, Medea Lily and Nightingale herself in zerk form) have a bigger healing burst for teams, and even then only on NP. This is my problem with the arguments against her based on how she does her things - it's factually not true she's doing them weakly. If people want to say 'I don't like her', fine, but use arguments based on facts and not just an ill-explained dislike, IMO.
Shine on, you crazy diamond.
(edited 4 days ago)

User Info: MrSmokestack

MrSmokestack
4 days ago#33
@KanzarisKelshen
Third-in-class damage boosting is good, especially when it’s agnostic. No arguments there.

As I’ve mentioned previously, healing and guts are the least effective ways to mitigate risk. The title of “best-in-class” for either of those isn’t groundbreaking. And that’s on a skill that’s a sidegrade—if not a downgrade—to what we’re used to seeing. You remember Sigurd’s Mana Burst being on a 9 turn CD at base? It’s like that; the important part of the skill gets nerfed because something irrelevant was added to the mix.

We’re going to have to agree to disagree on the usefulness of offensive buff removal. Nightingale isn’t going to spam her NP. Neutering enemy buffs is not in itself effective unless you have other boosts of your own to capitalize on it. If you want to make the most of that removal you have to cut into your damage, and that’s rarely a good trade.

Whenever a quest demands buff removal, it’s usually the job of a DPS to get rid of them. That or using Sherlock. Yes, Sherlock.

The NP “starburst” is really reaching. She doesn’t have it unless her NP is up, and she can’t even use it that often. Consistency is very important when it comes to crits, whether it’s pressing a button or making enough stars. She does make enough stars on her NP, but at that point this isn’t an advantage unique to her. When it comes to overall crit consistency, Chiron and Bartholomew are superior.

Spreading out is just as bad as focusing on a gimmick. If her other utility is so weak that you aren’t bringing her in for them ever, then she might as well not have them. If I need damage, I’m not bringing Nightingale. If I need stars, I’m not bringing Nightingale. If I need (de)buff control, I’m definitely not bringing Nightingale. She’s the textbook example of everything wrong with semi-supports: she can do a lot of things, but she doesn’t excel at any of them. Once you get more servants to choose from she becomes a lot less useful.

As for quests with a debuff-heavy gimmick, the three that come to mind are Tokugawa, Las Vegas Bout, and the Romulus EX match.
"Have you considered you may not be colorblind, but color-dumb?"- KanzarisKelshen
Spreading out is just as bad as focusing on a gimmick. If her other utility is so weak that you aren’t bringing her in for them ever, then she might as well not have them. If I need damage, I’m not bringing Nightingale.


Why not? Suppose for a moment you haven't been playing for like two years. Suppose, for a moment, that you only have an NP1 Lancelot, or Atalanta, or Parvati (you know, as people were asking in this thread). Why wouldn't you use Nightingale? Triloops be damned, her actual damage is going to be higher than them so long as she gets two NPs off. This isn't me making s*** up, this is how things actually play out until you have an np3 Atalanta, or an NP2 Parvati or Lancelot. When we talk about high Night's damage is, it matters. You have to dive into higher end trilooping to outpunch her because every single comparable unit (that is, in her rarity tier, quick, and AoE) does absolutely hot garbage damage outside of their burst turns while Nightingale's 'burst phase' is a 3 turn extravaganza. It's cute to talk about full access comps, but the fact of the matter is assembling one of these consistently is a process of two years. For the entirety of those two years, Nightingale is going to be your best quick AoE pointwoman with room to spare, and then she's going to transition into a buffer role she still does amazingly at. That's not something to scoff at.
Shine on, you crazy diamond.

User Info: Zilong17

Zilong17
4 days ago#35
MrSmokestack posted...
And no, offensive buff removal is not useful.


I don't think I've ever disagreed with you more.
"I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength in futility and vanity; yet my vindication is with the LORD, and my reward is with my God." Isa 49:4

User Info: Tressert

Tressert
4 days ago#36
If you're playing NP1 Lancelot or Atalanta then you're going to die and Nightingale isn't going to stop that with a heal and a guts every 5/7 turns. She would need a lot more defensive utility than she has to keep Servants like that alive.

If you mean "use her as a pointwoman over them", at that point the question is still- does she have enough defensive utility to survive challenge quests? Sure, she might do better than those guys, but a fail is a fail is a fail no matter how far in you get. I'm not sure I can see Skadi/Mash/Night or even double Skadi/Night or Skadi/Merlin/Night clearing anything meaningful. Maybe a Chen Gong setup could make it work? Point is she'd still be far too inconsistent to be worth considering for that kind of stuff.

Farming is a different story, but anyone "can" farm, it's just a question of how efficient they are at it. And I'm not sure Night is the best use of enerrgy for that either.
(edited 4 days ago)
Tressert posted...
If you're playing NP1 Lancelot or Atalanta then you're going to die and Nightingale isn't going to stop that with a heal and a guts every 5/7 turns. She would need a lot more defensive utility than she has to keep Servants like that alive.

If you mean "use her as a pointwoman over them", at that point the question is still- does she have enough defensive utility to survive challenge quests? Sure, she might do better than those guys, but a fail is a fail is a fail no matter how far in you get. I'm not sure I can see Skadi/Mash/Night or even double Skadi/Night or Skadi/Merlin/Night clearing anything meaningful. Maybe a Chen Gong setup could make it work? Point is she'd still be far too inconsistent to be worth considering for that kind of stuff.

Farming is a different story, but anyone "can" farm, it's just a question of how efficient they are at it. And I'm not sure Night is the best use of enerrgy for that either.


My main thinking is challenge quests. No reason she couldn't wipe those, all things considered. And if the argument is none of the servants mentioned can clear CQs at NP1...at that point I think there's two possibilities:

A) Quick's weakness outside high end play is being overblown. Night can, in fact, clear CQs, because the others can, and she does it better.

B) Quick's weakness isn't overblown and none of them, Night included, can clear. At that point the conversation shifts from 'Night is bad' to 'anything Quick that isn't whalemode or prepped over the very long term is trash', at which point sure, we can debate whether that's true or not.

Basically I don't think it's practical to say she sucks without taking her out for a spin on CQs and running, say, ten runs with a winning team and seeing what happens. She has an advantage for this particular CQ, obviously, but you can more or less even it out by running her CEless if it's a big problem.

EDIT: Technically there's also the possibility Night specifically can clear and the others can't due to hitting damage breakpoints too, I suppose -- but that'd speak well of Night's prowess, not poorly.
Shine on, you crazy diamond.
(edited 4 days ago)

User Info: Tressert

Tressert
4 days ago#38
KanzarisKelshen posted...
B) Quick's weakness isn't overblown and none of them, Night included, can clear. At that point the conversation shifts from 'Night is bad' to 'anything Quick that isn't whalemode or prepped over the very long term is trash', at which point sure, we can debate whether that's true or not.
That's basically what it is, and has long been the consensus. Quick has a high entry bar and if you don't meet it they're really bad. NP1 Lancelot isn't clearing s***. I'm pretty sure most people on this board would agree with that. This isn't a new idea or a revolutionary statement.

Difference is Nightingale doesn't scale as well with investment.

I will add the caveat that I think a few Servants can perform very well in challenge quests without that same degree of investment- Kama, Achilles, and NP2+ Parvati with a friend Skadi and Mash or Merlin are all very consistent. I'm not sure Night packs that level of defense though.
(edited 4 days ago)
I will add the caveat that I think a few Servants can perform very well in challenge quests without that same degree of investment- Kama, Achilles, and NP2+ Parvati with a friend Skadi and Mash or Merlin are all very consistent. I'm not sure Night packs that level of defense though.


Right, this is the point I'm arguing against. If you got Skadi, what are you gonna do, not use her if she's your only cardmod support? Serious question here. If you were in that position of not having those three pointmen you mentioned and had Skadi, what would you do? Wave goodbye to a CQ sadly as it defies your attempts to clear it? Grab your highest dps pointman and blow it up with seals (which would be night, ironically)? Something else?
Shine on, you crazy diamond.

User Info: Tressert

Tressert
4 days ago#40
If that's your situation you're even better off? You can grab a high level friend Parvati (mine is NP4 level 100) or a friend Achilles (preferably with higher NP levels than what a F2P is going to achieve) and you've got yourself a team. That's an even better position than having a weaker DPS and a friend Skadi.

If you're at the point where literally all you have is a Skadi and you don't even have any friends then yeah, you're probably not clearing challenge quests. I don't think that's a huge statement lol.
(edited 4 days ago)
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