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User Info: KeyKing7

KeyKing7
7 months ago#31
Thanks for making this @Zilong17 ! Sticky requested!
Dishonor on you! Dishonor on your cow!

User Info: kuronoshingami

kuronoshingami
7 months ago#32
Great guide mate. sticky requested. this will help a lot of new players! thanks for making this.
Mi wo sutetemo, myouri wa sutezu!

User Info: Goraishi

Goraishi
7 months ago#33
nghiango1989 posted...
Wow, Sumanai was the first gold servant that I maxed out his level. I had him for so long that I forgot his 3rd skill was actually available from the start so thanks for reminding me of that. So it was already so long ago when people said Sumanai was so weak and useless that they burned him as soon as they got him. I also remembered when Amakusa and Dantes were "bad" as well.


Sumanai and Dantes aren't the same situation. We've known the whole time on NA that Sumanai will be fine eventually so burning him was always excessive. A bunch of NA players just loved to judge him based on his state at launch and ignore his later buffs. When Dantes hit NA, he was bad. There was no information to indicate anything else as he was still bad on JP.

User Info: alexbanning

alexbanning
7 months ago#34
I might have missed it, but the other piece of advice I would give is to populate your support list as much as possible as soon as possible. Even if it's all level 1 FP summon units and your 4* starter, it shows that you are actually playing (and not as likely to reroll and be inactive).

I'm way more likely to accept a low level friend request if they have, even, a level 1 Leonidas in their Lancer slot (or just anything other than a level 1 Mash). Bonus points if you've joined during an event and have even one event CE.

Taking those quick steps will increase the number of people who accept your request and make it easier to build your friend list (in my experience, at least).

User Info: x Shadow

x Shadow
7 months ago#35
I still have to disagree with Herc not being the best starter option, at least on NA.

Zilong17 posted...
Herc is good for boss battles but he has a lot of issues with Gawain in particular out of Camelot alone, while Boobtoria completely negates his gimmick out of hand, he's a poor choice for Ozy's gauntlets, and he is not good for a new player to farm an event with compared to the other three.


And is Siegfried somehow a better option for either one? Maybe for Lartoria at best but otherwise I'm not seeing it. Even for her you're better off just finding a friend saber support like your Musashi, and it's a done deal. On NA, I used Dishware's Okita.

My starter in NA was Herc and I don't think anyone else would have provided any easier a time. For farming, you have plenty of low rarity berserker servants which are better than any of the starters you get anyway. Herc's playstyle is simple and effective, and at Bond 10 he at least has some purpose in a team, even if the newbie in question decides to whale hard. Plus at NP2 he's a good all purpose final wave boss killer. Siegfried is a lot more limited in scope, though not a bad unit after all of his buffs. If you ever get a support of your own and want to run double supports on the frontline, you can't do that if you also want an anchor but don't have your own Herc. For late game buildup I think he's far more worthwhile than any of them.

This is always going to be a matter of opinion but I'm not seeing it.
"I raised that boy"
https://youtu.be/EfiSTYBfYvk?t=173
(edited 7 months ago)

User Info: Zilong17

Zilong17
7 months ago#36
x Shadow posted...
And is Siegfried somehow a better option for either one? Maybe for Lartoria at best but otherwise I'm not seeing it. Even for her you're better off just finding a friend saber support like your Musashi, and it's a done deal. On NA, I used Dishware's Okita.


Siegfried is AoE and is thus better for the Ozymandias three-stage battle by default, yes. Siegfried is also just as capable of one-shotting Boobtoria as Musashi is.

You don't need a Herc anchor when George/Siegfried/support Merlin can kill almost everything up through EoR2 with a single NP-chain anyway.

I also specified that the reason I picked Siegfried is because he naturally teaches new players how to play the game via the usage of a trait skill and two NP gen buffs to demonstrate the difference in base NP and with buffs. Herc teaches you that red cards deal damage.
"I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength in futility and vanity; yet my vindication is with the LORD, and my reward is with my God." Isa 49:4
(edited 7 months ago)

User Info: x Shadow

x Shadow
7 months ago#37
Zilong17 posted...
Siegfried is AoE and is thus better for the Ozymandias three-stage battle by default, yes. Siegfried is also just as capable of one-shotting Boobtoria as Musashi is.


An NP1 Siegfried does 19k after all buffs and strengthenings (I don't remember whether those are all in NA yet), and skill ups. That's 38k to 2 targets. Neither of them are dragons. You're going to be fighting 2 targets at a time. Heracles does about 38k to one target, boosted by 1.5 class modifier. That's more damage. Also in that fight it's more important to take down one target at a time (that target being Ozy by far), not just sprinkle fairy dust on both targets and hope they die eventually while a rider boss is putting out huge crits on your frontline.

Also that's a gross hyperbole on lartoria and you know it. To even get him anywhere close to that point you have to max ascend him in the first place (involving proofs) and then use hearts to skill him up. Any average player that hasn't quit by then and isn't just playing the long game is going to either grab a powerful support or simply ask what to do on the forums. Which means at the end of the day neither of them are necessary for roughly the whole of Camelot. Which I'm not sure why you keep pointing back at Camelot considering that by the time they got to Camelot (and especially those two fights within camelot) they certainly don't need much in the way of gameplay instruction.

Zilong17 posted...
You don't need a Herc anchor when George/Siegfried/support Merlin can kill almost everything up through EoR2 with a single NP-chain anyway.


That's deflecting the point. As an anchor he's unmatched. So anyone interested in maximizing their late game options should have him. What does Siegfried do for you? Nuke dragons? Okay. Is that as valuable as having the best late game pointman in the game, long term? I'm not of that opinion.

Zilong17 posted...
I also specified that the reason I picked Siegfried is because he naturally teaches new players how to play the game via the usage of a trait skill and two NP gen buffs to demonstrate the difference in base NP and with buffs. Herc teaches you that red cards deal damage.


That's kind of already advanced gameplay calculations, and will basically require almost Disgaea-levels of wiki and forum prowling. You're basically saying you're giving them an otherwise subpar unit so that they can learn, the hard way, which part of each formula goes where. Throw them in the water without a lifejacket. That's a bit much. Yes, Heracles is simple. Simple is fine for starting out. Heracles teaches them how later gameplay is like anyway... that is, "protect the fragile VIP damage dealer". >_>; IMO that's valuable experience as is. I'll admit there's something you can learn from how Siegfried plays but... I don't think Siegfried needs to specifically be picked in order to teach a person this information.

Well you can get two SRs from the opening summon, too, if you want to get into advanced stuff.
"I raised that boy"
https://youtu.be/EfiSTYBfYvk?t=173
(edited 7 months ago)

User Info: MrSmokestack

MrSmokestack
7 months ago#38
Siegfried has better long term value than Heracles. He also has much better short term value considering you don't need to spend 6 months getting him to Bond 10 first.
DID YOU KNOW THAT NINETY-SEVEN PERCENT OF ALL LIVING THINGS ON PANDORA AREN'T EXPLODING RIGHT NOW? THAT'S BULLS***, BUY TORGUE! -Mr. Torgue

User Info: Zilong17

Zilong17
7 months ago#39
An NP1 Siegfried does 19k after all buffs and strengthenings (I don't remember whether those are all in NA yet), and skill ups. That's 38k to 2 targets. Neither of them are dragons. You're going to be fighting 2 targets at a time. Heracles does about 38k to one target, boosted by 1.5 class modifier. That's more damage. Also in that fight it's more important to take down one target at a time (that target being Ozy by far), not just sprinkle fairy dust on both targets and hope they die eventually while a rider boss is putting out huge crits on your frontline.

Or you could do exactly what I said a newer player could appreciatively do and run George/Merlin/Sieg and drop 50k on one target and 19k on the other (preferably Ozy since Nito won't deal any damage to George at all), and Siegfried is much easier to get an NP off for than Herc.

Also that's a gross hyperbole on lartoria and you know it. To even get him anywhere close to that point you have to max ascend him in the first place (involving proofs) and then use hearts to skill him up.

This is easily accomplished by Camelot due to the singularity mat rewards. They're very common in NA and you only need to max a single skill (and probably not even max it). A Siegfried without his strengthenings and no outside support except Anni-Blonde can crack 140k on Boobtoria at NP3. An NP1 Siegfried buffed by Merlin and other supports should not have any trouble dispatching her either.

Which I'm not sure why you keep pointing back at Camelot considering that by the time they got to Camelot (and especially those two fights within camelot) they certainly don't need much in the way of gameplay instruction.

Because Camelot was the original point of the comparison that you just jumped into starting from post 19.

That's deflecting the point. As an anchor he's unmatched. So anyone interested in maximizing their late game options should have him. What does Siegfried do for you? Nuke dragons? Okay. Is that as valuable as having the best late game pointman in the game, long term? I'm not of that opinion.

Assuming you mean Parvati, I already noted she would be the better starter in JP but left it "arguable" because I've no experience with a single Skadi Parvati, and I'm not going to assume a new player has their own Skadi to put Parvati on top. Especially since if a new player starts in JP/NA after Skadi's original run she has yet to be re-run and is thus rare.

That's kind of already advanced gameplay calculations, and will basically require almost Disgaea-levels of wiki and forum prowling. You're basically saying you're giving them an otherwise subpar unit so that they can learn, the hard way, which part of each formula goes where

No I'm not, I'm teaching them "Hey these NP gens are worth something" and that it's worth paying attention to the damage traits. I wouldn't call it "advanced" gameplay calcs by a longshot.

I'll admit there's something you can learn from how Siegfried plays but... I don't think Siegfried needs to specifically be picked in order to teach a person this information.

Except "protect the damage dealer" is contrary to how everyone says to use Herc anyway - by the time Herc shows up all your protection is dead. Siegfried goes with George who also teaches players the merit of taunts while having better Merlin synergy all around. Herc is good by himself, but Siegfried/George/Merlin is a much better team and for that reason I consider them much better for teaching a new player to actually play FGO, not click on the red cards and hope they get enough damage before 4 turns pass.
"I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength in futility and vanity; yet my vindication is with the LORD, and my reward is with my God." Isa 49:4

User Info: x Shadow

x Shadow
7 months ago#40
Zilong17 posted...
Or you could do exactly what I said a newer player could appreciatively do and run George/Merlin/Sieg [snip]


If you're using a taunter anyway, I don't see why Herc is magically unusable in the frontline. I want to see you actually make a new account (or accounts) and prove that this is actually far superior to using Herc. Either way it's kind of pointless as it's just one fight that you keep zeroing in on. Which, frankly I think Herc using an NPBB, if you're insisting on using Merlin, would work fine. I used a Raikou support on my Merlin NA account and I kept her alive through most or all of it... she doesn't even have guts and I had no taunters.

Zilong17 posted...
140k on Boobtoria at NP3


This entire paragraph has no relevance. Why are we even mentioning an NP3 Siegfried in passing? If you're just specifically excluding a saber support for this one specific fight that you like to fight a certain way, for no reason, I'm really trying hard to understand what your actual point is. One dragon lancer fight doesn't make a character you're stuck with better.
Zilong17 posted...
Because Camelot was the original point of the comparison that you just jumped into starting from post 19.


Because it was one of your initial points of comparison in your opening post. I latched onto it because you seem to like specifically pointing this out and it doesn't make sense to me either way as a point of decision. By and far the most influential unit for Camelot is probably Euryale, followed by whale DPS supports. Your starter makes no difference. You seem to be specifically guiding players to the playstyle that you like. There seems to be a distinct divide between pragmatism and whatever this advice is.

Zilong17 posted...
No I'm not, I'm teaching them "Hey these NP gens are worth something" [snip]


On what? They're not going to be eyes bloodshot, staring at their NP bar and noticing that they're gaining 4 instead of 3% NP. Nor do they encounter dragons till a bit later anyway. Herc eases people in better, and teaches them the value of taunters, if anything, while Siegfried teaches another aspect of gameplay. He's not superior because his kit is slightly more complex. I wouldn't call him a min-maxed starter choice by far. What you should be teaching is that low rarity units (supposing the player in question wants to be self sufficient) eclipse most of these anyway.

Zilong17 posted...
Except "protect the damage dealer" is contrary to how everyone says to use Herc anyway - by the time Herc shows up all your protection is dead.


Who is "everyone"? We're talking about a fresh player. They're looking at your guide. Why are you assuming their mental state? Frankly, objectively Herc still is a top tier unit. He does what he does better than anyone else. Picking him for this would not be wrong. On my JP account I still do not have a single Heracles and sometimes I wish I did. The only way they're going to play him is ways that you suggest, which he can be used as a frontliner. As well as Cu Alter? No. But he does do enough damage to make it happen. What Siegfried could do to a non-dragon in an NPBB, he could probably do in a BAB.
"I raised that boy"
https://youtu.be/EfiSTYBfYvk?t=173
(edited 7 months ago)
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