Yoko Taro can't write, he can only emotionally manipulate

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  3. Yoko Taro can't write, he can only emotionally manipulate

User Info: Ignoranc3

Ignoranc3
1 year ago#51
Im not finished with the game yet, but the dialogue is poorly written and it's hard to really get pulled into the universe when I scratch my head everytime someone talks. Granted, I went to college for English and I'm a bit cynical when it comes to dialogue and story. However, i understand how other people like it
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User Info: CrimsonX4

CrimsonX4
1 year ago#52
RollingSkull posted...
Yoko Taro does not write stories about characters. He writes vignettes where mechanically precise cosmological forces terrorize helpless children and the children sobbing uncontrollably as it happens. Sometimes the children are literal, like the machines, and sometimes they are children in adult bodies like Nier and 9S. But they have no agency or ability to change their situation and we are treated to lengthy cutscenes of them crying all the same.

These are not stories. They are nihilist anti-stories. Their value only comes from the crass manipulation of emotions involved in seeing cute and charming things suffer.

(At least until Ending E which is such a goofy tonal about face that it rings of Square execs pulling Taro aside and saying "Dude! Seriously!")



This is such a dumb point. Just because you might not like these types of stories doesn't change the fact they are stories to begin with.

Also there is nothing wrong with nihilism nor basing a story around it's themes. Hell I'd argue in favor of it. Plus a story's worth also comes from it's world and characters, in which his games do excel at.

These are some of the most creative and unique characters I've had the pleasure to enjoy in a game. Just because of that Taro and his team deserve praise.

So no TC you are wrong

User Info: 123chatty

123chatty
1 year ago#53
...whether you like Taro or not, every story out there is trying to emotionally manipulate you in one way or another. Why are you acting like it's a unique thing here? Also, what do you consider makes a story TC. Because like it or not, this is technically a story and you're acting like it isn't one.

User Info: x3Chris3x

x3Chris3x
1 year ago#54
RollingSkull posted...
Yoko Taro does not write stories about characters. He writes vignettes where mechanically precise cosmological forces terrorize helpless children and the children sobbing uncontrollably as it happens. Sometimes the children are literal, like the machines, and sometimes they are children in adult bodies like Nier and 9S. But they have no agency or ability to change their situation and we are treated to lengthy cutscenes of them crying all the same.

These are not stories. They are nihilist anti-stories. Their value only comes from the crass manipulation of emotions involved in seeing cute and charming things suffer.

(At least until Ending E which is such a goofy tonal about face that it rings of Square execs pulling Taro aside and saying "Dude! Seriously!")

Cute? You calling Gary Busey from the International version of Nier cute?
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User Info: Surrealist38

Surrealist38
1 year ago#55
BlueMage02 posted...
I'm just going to post in this thread to remind myself that sometimes, very rarely, people can actually have meaningful discussions in GameFAQs without stupid stuff being thrown around by both parties.

Kudos to TC and everyone else involved. I love you guys.

(And I don't see anything wrong with emotion manipulation but I can kinda see where people come from. I disagree with them, but to each their own.)


I second this. I usually find meaningful discussions on reddit. I'll drop in on gamefaqs every so often, but I usually just walk away, shaking my head. TC's post deserves to be bumped.

User Info: Skull007o_O

Skull007o_O
1 year ago#56
Ignoranc3 posted...
Im not finished with the game yet, but the dialogue is poorly written and it's hard to really get pulled into the universe when I scratch my head everytime someone talks. Granted, I went to college for English and I'm a bit cynical when it comes to dialogue and story. However, i understand how other people like it

Characters speaking nonsense and not understanding what's going on is pretty much the essence of the drakengard/nier universe

By the time you get to the twist, you (and the characters) realize that all this s*** already happened; they're just an afterthought that was tossed in the middle of the s***storm that has been happening already for several millenia

I'm extremely surprised reviewers didn't generally criticize the game for how clueless things can get at some points. You get the full picture much later, and if you pay extreme attention
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User Info: TonyRodney

TonyRodney
1 year ago#57
Kaioshin Sama posted...
RollingSkull posted...
This page is some hot banter and I promise better replies but I don't have time now. Let me drop this thought experiment that cleared it all up for me:

Why do the machines act like half-puppy half-children? Why are all the androids almost completely undistinguishable from anime protagonists, even all the way to including "really good friends/maybe yuribait?" affection? What sheer number of failures in the entire design chain of this product resulted in an E droid falling for its target?

Whatever you can say about this story, it absolutely is not about robots and androids an what separates them from humanity. I can swallow a couple of these stylistic flourishes, but I can't help but look at them in aggregate and say that EVERY SINGLE ONE was to emotionally manipulate or foster a plot point leading to that sort of loaded drama.


Its a rare good topic. Pleasantly surprised by both it and thay people actually got the point of it and didn't just flip out and start attacking you like I suspected.

Anyway you look at Tales of Berseria even too and it's "tale of emotion vs reason" complete with sexy character designs and a strong stoic leading lady type and it's little surprise it too is praised as the best tales story in years for it by a fair number of people.

It's more or less the best story because it doesn't have potholes. Tales of xillia had a hot main character as well and yet it's story was never praised. He'll even tales of vesperia story wasn't praised and it has the most popular tales main character. To me TOB just flows better than past games, but so don't see many people saying the story is amazing, just that it's a good tales story.

Besides there's been plenty of games that were considered to have the best story, tales of the abyss was another before berseria so I don't really think you can use bersria as an example here.
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User Info: Dewcrystal

Dewcrystal
1 year ago#58
BlueMage02 posted...
(And I don't see anything wrong with emotion manipulation but I can kinda see where people come from. I disagree with them, but to each their own.)

This is a fundamental aspect with entertainment media in general. The thing is, because a story has to be tailored, emotional manipulation is a necessary part of the experience. Whether you're trying to drum up anxiety or terror or affection or sadness, a writer in any medium is going to be attempting to emotionally manipulate the audience.

The difference is whether they earn your respect.

I think NIER did an excellent job of endearing you to the characters before systematically destroying them, but I know (again) that it didn't gel for everybody and it can certainly come across as manipulative. That's fine; it's not a story for everybody and if it didn't work for you, it didn't.

But dismissing it as being 'emotionally manipulative' is dismissing 99% of all entertainment media. If the writers aren't trying to get you to feel a certain way, you wind up with useless meandering stream-of-consciousness narratives that might have some pretentious artistic merit but are in no way indicative of a legitimate story.

You're perfectly free not to like his writing (although by some of the comments here, I feel like this is a preference for Western writing development than Japanese, as both cultures have different structures and story beats and you can very well prefer one over the other; you can hold up two pieces of media made in two different countries and even with the ongoing cultural assimilation between the two you can still tell 'this sounds like it came from the West' versus 'this sounds like it came from Japan'). You're perfectly free to think the manipulation is too naked. But it's pretty arrogant to just say that's all there is to it.

RollingSkull posted...
These are not stories. They are nihilist anti-stories.
...especially because you legitimately miss the entire point of the story. Both times.

These aren't exercises in nihilism. They're explorations of humanity. The first game was 'nihilistic' in that it was exploring (and I've already said this to you, but I think you stopped posting in the thread by the time I replied) love in many forms-- between Nier and Yonah (both the Gestalt and Replicant versions of them), Nier and his ersatz family, the King and Fyra (contrasted against Roc and his dying vow to his master), the Twins for each other, Gideon for Jacob (contrasted against Beepy and Kalil)... every story is reinforcing the concept of love, both the purity of passion and the obsessive depths it drives people to. The story isn't nihilistic just because people die; its ultimate point is the depths of devotion humans are capable of are heroic and terrible, enough to move the earth or destroy it.

Automata is similarly not nihilistic. The robots aren't just robots set up to die; as has been mentioned, most of the characters are indicative of different aspects of the human condition and different concepts of philosophy. The whole came is an existential crisis, and it's really not subtle about it. Every character involved comes to a different conclusion about the meaning of their own existence, or whether it still has meaning, or whether it should. That's not nihilism, that's existential philosophy.

(Hell, Pascal even has a passing jab at Nietzsche's nihilistic conclusions.)

These aren't 'nihilistic anti-stories' unless you really can't get past 'people die, life is pointless, feel sad'. They aren't pointless sacrifices, and it's those motivations (not the deaths themselves) that lend the emotional basis to the games.

Just because it's not as obvious as Undertale doesn't make it any less meaningful.
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User Info: GiraffeNecks

GiraffeNecks
1 year ago#60
Dewcrystal posted...


These aren't exercises in nihilism. They're explorations of humanity. The first game was 'nihilistic' in that it was exploring (and I've already said this to you, but I think you stopped posting in the thread by the time I replied) love in many forms-- between Nier and Yonah (both the Gestalt and Replicant versions of them), Nier and his ersatz family, the King and Fyra (contrasted against Roc and his dying vow to his master), the Twins for each other, Gideon for Jacob (contrasted against Beepy and Kalil)... every story is reinforcing the concept of love, both the purity of passion and the obsessive depths it drives people to. The story isn't nihilistic just because people die; its ultimate point is the depths of devotion humans are capable of are heroic and terrible, enough to move the earth or destroy it.

Automata is similarly not nihilistic. The robots aren't just robots set up to die; as has been mentioned, most of the characters are indicative of different aspects of the human condition and different concepts of philosophy. The whole came is an existential crisis, and it's really not subtle about it. Every character involved comes to a different conclusion about the meaning of their own existence, or whether it still has meaning, or whether it should. That's not nihilism, that's existential philosophy.

(Hell, Pascal even has a passing jab at Nietzsche's nihilistic conclusions.)

These aren't 'nihilistic anti-stories' unless you really can't get past 'people die, life is pointless, feel sad'. They aren't pointless sacrifices, and it's those motivations (not the deaths themselves) that lend the emotional basis to the games.

Just because it's not as obvious as Undertale doesn't make it any less meaningful.


This is a brilliant post, DewCrystal. Well done.

While Nier does defy its nihilism, I couldn't help but feel that it's deeply fatalistic - at least in the first game. There was an air of inevitability to the events, especially after witnessing the latter endings. I had seen it as Gestalt's and Replicant's absolute desire for Yonah as closing off any other outcome. Then again, the sacrifice made at the end may contradict that.

I felt the same way about Automata at first. I mean, if they are androids, which have the robots core, won't they keep making the same mistakes over and over? Ending [E] for Automata, however, might contradict this. I love Yoko's ambiguity.

The only thing I disagree with you, or rather would like to clarify, is that Nietzche never had nihilistic conclusions. The man was deeply anti-nihilist and often criticized religions -- such as Christianity -- as being the nihilists for their life-denying, using the term 'nihilist' often as an insult. In fact, if I remember correctly, Pascal actually indicated that Nietzche may have been a genius or a madman in reference to his views on the state/individual, which is hardly a jab, imo.

Again, I love your post/analysis.
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