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  3. Penetrating vs. Twoshot legendary effects?

User Info: Trainalf

Trainalf
4 weeks ago#1
So my RNG on my latest playthrough has been mixed. I haven't got any good combat armor, but I've gotten two legendary level action repeaters, which are my favorite weapon to use once I get to Far Harbor. One has the two-shot ability, which means I don't have to buy that one from Arcadia, and the other has the penetrating effect. The twoshot one fully upgraded says it does more damage, but the penetrating one says it ignores 30% of armor and damage resistance.

I'm not actually sure which is more powerful.
PSN-Trainalf
Life sucks, deal with it.

User Info: Olld-Onne

Olld-Onne
4 weeks ago#2
The two shot for sure. The more perks you get to increase damage the greater the gap between it and the 30% ignore armor will show.

Only Instigating and Junkie legendaries can tend to out perform Two Shot per single enemy. One requires the enemy to be at full heath mind and the other is dependent on how many chems you are addicted to. Two Shot is a good legendary effect that is not dependant on outside factors which is why the Overseer Guardian is considered one of the best guns in game period.
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(edited 4 weeks ago)

User Info: ninja rabbit

ninja rabbit
4 weeks ago#3
2 shot is way better. Especially when dealing with enemies with low armor enemies. Even with high armor enemies 2 shot works better due to your damage going way up as you add perks, magazines, and multipliers that increase damage.
Despite all my rage I'm still just a rabbit in a cage
XBL Gamertag: ninjarabbitmega
(edited 4 weeks ago)

User Info: justinlynch3

justinlynch3
4 weeks ago#4
In the open, Explosive if you can find it. A lot of perks can increase Explosive bullet damage and Explosive gives you the chance of killing 2 enemies in 1 shot if they are close together.

In confined spaces or when on escort missions you want the Two Shot.
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User Info: leeman27534

leeman27534
4 weeks ago#5
does penetrating even work? i thought it was glitched.

as for legendary effects, depends on the weapon.

some really high damage sniper good for a sneak crit build - instigating's actually your best bet. for a lot of weapons, two shot is NOT double damage - if you've increased the damage via receiver upgrades, it's not double damage. like the gauss rifle, you're missing out on a ton of damage with two shot, given it's 'charge' also doubles the damage (not that you need it really, it's essentially the best sniper weapon in the game in the top 5 for damage output)
sure, it's not every shot, but when you're one shotting 99% of the game's foes, kinda doesn't matter.

two shot is better on more mid range guns that it'll take a few shots to kill foes -especially guns that don't amp their damage via a receiver too much.
how it works is the base damage is added to the gun, and the damage is split between two bullets
so base 50 gun wit 70 damage thanks to the receiver, will shoot two bullets with 60 damage each.
however: a weapon lowering damage for full auto, will get more than a boost - same 50 base gun, now 30 damage, will shoot two bullets dealing 40 damage each. only problem is, recoil's also increased so can't go full auto too easily, need to burst fire it to control it.
generally pretty good on most 40-70 damage ish weapons, especially if not full auto.

explosive is powerful as s***, because not only is it boosted by the weapon damage perk, like a lot of these, it's also boosted by the explosives perk.
however, you WILL kill yourself with this weapon, on occasion. so, caution.

a safer alternative is the 'wounding' effect. each hit deals 25 unresistable damage to the foe, and it stacks - a shotgun hitting with 8 pellets, the damage isn't split between them like some other bonuses, instead, like explosive and some other 'on hit' ish effects like stagger, it works with each projectile - every shot will deal 200 damage that even a foe with 2k armor will still take 200 damage for. with a combat shotgun and a drum mag, no enemy in the game (that's killable) can withstand half the drum mag

the weaker a weapon is, the less useful two shot is - a weapon with like 8 base damage will get more out of the + damage stuff like freezing (which has utility use in crits can freeze foes for a while), because, again, if the gun currently has like 24 damage, two shot will still only add the original 8, while also increasing recoil quite a bit.

there's also stuff that isn't damage that can help -
a staggering shotgun will basically stunlock foes
never ending can make some somewhat unwieldy weapons more useful (i've got this radiation build where i love the lorenzo's artifact gamma guns - except gamma guns reload so damn slow)
for a crit build, both lucky (better crit damage and vats crit refill), potentially with overdrive chem to let you crit outside of vats, and relentless (crits refill action points), can be very useful, more so than just raw damage upgrade due to the crit synergy
similarly, for a vats build, vats enhanced is utterly fantastic - increased accuracy and reduced vats cost will let you tear through more foes with a single vats use, potentially getting a lot out of penetrator and gun fu, depending on perks and foes present.

and rapid, on the gatlng laser, is kinda glitched - with the charging barrels, instead of giving the normal boost, it doubles fire rate - so a high ammo capacity gun with like 5X damage for a tradeoff of slower shots (still pretty fast though) with this effect has double the fire rate, makes for an insanely effective weapon.
(edited 4 weeks ago)

User Info: craig_psn

craig_psn
4 weeks ago#6
^ Agreed. Might as well add my 3 cents of random thoughts too.

I love killing 2 enemies with one shot from a "wimpy" Explosive gun. Works best for me with a sniper rifle, because you can exactly place your shot, and from a good distance.

A 2-shot Combat Rifle is probably the only gun you need in the game. If you spec into the relevant perks, and there are a lot of them that help, plus build the gun to suit. I carry 2 of them, one set up for VATS and one for sniping; I rarely use the sniping one, but it's suppressed (both are) and makes things a little too easy in general, but good for the bigger stuff.

Even though I have not yet specced into Gunslinger, an Explosive 10mm pistol is the only gun I've carried since early in the game (i.e. >80 levels) and it's still good. I believe I could play the game just using it *if* I specced into Gunslinger (the main prob is the short range without it).

Another gun I always carry, and is easily my favorite gun (but not the one I use the most), is an Explosive Pipe Rifle. This is another excellent weapon, even at a level somewhere in the 90s. It replaced a Wounding Pipe Rifle that I also got early in the game, and was my main gun into the mid-70s when I found the Explosive version. I always give my Companion a suppressed Wounding pistol. I want them to be effective, yet not kill too fast so I can get my licks in.

Notice I only mentioned the wimpiest Explosive guns. Indoors, you can very quickly kill yourself even with one of these, especially an automatic or shotgun, unless you're careful and/or have Dense/Padded, once you're at Demo. Expert 3 or 4. Explosive guns can't use Penetrator, but they don't need to: close counts with what is essentially a mini-grenade launcher.

Explosive guns are also dangerous to use when you have friendly Settlers or animals and want to keep them alive during a battle. But a 2-shot gun can also be dangerous to friendlies: sometimes one of the 2 bullets may hit a very close melee-engaged friendly (that's right: both bullets don't always hit the same target). And kill them or turn them hostile.

User Info: ghpstage

ghpstage
4 weeks ago#7
Due to the games weird damage math there is no space in the mechanics that allows weapons to be specifically better against high or low DR targets, changes to DAM or DR modifiers (such as from Penetrating) end up applying equally across the entire range where DR is not completely overwhelmed where it drops from 14% to 0% over a narrow range (you break DR when DAM/DR exceeds 6.6, which isn't normal except when sniping).

Penetrating's -30% DR only translates to just under 14% extra damage, which doesn't look like much to start with but when you remember that merely adding damage improves a weapons DR penetration it gets worse. The stated +10% damage from Hitman's is worth almost exactly as much after the change to DAM/DR is accounted for.
Energy DR is so buggy that I see it as it likely that Penetrating does not work on it at all on them (I don't have an example to test right now), but whether that is the case or not, Penetrating is overall pretty awful, only a few effects are worse.

.... but Penetrating is just one of many things that don't live up to the description (few things in this game work as described/intended!). The amount of damage that Lucky adds to crits for example is always equal to the unperked parts damage of the weapon. Its another hugely overrated bottom dweller.

Two Shot is interesting in that it affects the weapons parts damage directly. This allows it to boost both regular and crit damage, which multiplier types such as Instigating don't. In the Overseer's Guardian it also offers a guaranteed spawn on one of the games best base guns. Two shot is pretty terrible on shotguns however, not because of the mythical 'just one more pellet' nonsense, but because it increases spread so much that ranges outside of the targets nostrils end up with a lot of misses.
(edited 4 weeks ago)

User Info: leeman27534

leeman27534
4 weeks ago#8
ghpstage posted...
Due to the games weird damage math there is no space in the mechanics that allows weapons to be specifically better against high or low DR targets,

i mean, beside just damage values.

a weapon dealing 8 damage against something with 100 armor just sucks - recall the minigun fight against a deathclaw? try that again with an upgraded shotgun or rifle ish weapon. it goes a LOT f***ing smoother, instead of taking over 500 bullets.

however, a 100 damage weapon against 100 armor? deals most of it's damage still.
I'm not mad. i just tend to use 'f***ing' to let you know there's a noun on the way.

User Info: ghpstage

ghpstage
3 weeks ago#9
I need a better way of explaining...

If you run the numbers of a minigun w/standard barrels against a basic automatic combat rifle while assuming all shots hit then,
Against 100DR the DPS of the combat will be 1.24 times that of the minigun
Against 50DR the DPS of the combat will be 1.24 times that of the minigun
Against 10DR the DPS of the combat will be 1.24 times that of the minigun
Against 5DR the DPS of the combat will be 1.24 times that of the minigun
This ratio of 1.24 would hold against any DR value where DR isn't broken, it would even remain true if the weapons are perked provided they were applied equally (i.e. Commando 1 vs Heavy Gunner 1)

From that I hope it makes sense that the minigun isn't especially bad against high DR, it is uniformly weaker against any DR value that matters.
You just don't notice it as much against low DR targets as they almost exclusively have low HP too.
This is what I was referring to when I said that weapons can't be weaker against high OR low DR, in reality they are either stronger OR weaker against BOTH. As they work by multiplying armour piercing effects or damage multipliers fall into the same trap.

Oh, and 100 DAM vs 100DR leads to 50 final DAM :P
(edited 3 weeks ago)

User Info: Olld-Onne

Olld-Onne
2 weeks ago#10
leeman27534 posted...
does penetrating even work? i thought it was glitched.

as for legendary effects, depends on the weapon.

some really high damage sniper good for a sneak crit build - instigating's actually your best bet. for a lot of weapons, two shot is NOT double damage - if you've increased the damage via receiver upgrades, it's not double damage. like the gauss rifle, you're missing out on a ton of damage with two shot, given it's 'charge' also doubles the damage (not that you need it really, it's essentially the best sniper weapon in the game in the top 5 for damage output)
sure, it's not every shot, but when you're one shotting 99% of the game's foes, kinda doesn't matter.

two shot is better on more mid range guns that it'll take a few shots to kill foes -especially guns that don't amp their damage via a receiver too much.
how it works is the base damage is added to the gun, and the damage is split between two bullets
so base 50 gun wit 70 damage thanks to the receiver, will shoot two bullets with 60 damage each.
however: a weapon lowering damage for full auto, will get more than a boost - same 50 base gun, now 30 damage, will shoot two bullets dealing 40 damage each. only problem is, recoil's also increased so can't go full auto too easily, need to burst fire it to control it.
generally pretty good on most 40-70 damage ish weapons, especially if not full auto.

explosive is powerful as s***, because not only is it boosted by the weapon damage perk, like a lot of these, it's also boosted by the explosives perk.
however, you WILL kill yourself with this weapon, on occasion. so, caution.

a safer alternative is the 'wounding' effect. each hit deals 25 unresistable damage to the foe, and it stacks - a shotgun hitting with 8 pellets, the damage isn't split between them like some other bonuses, instead, like explosive and some other 'on hit' ish effects like stagger, it works with each projectile - every shot will deal 200 damage that even a foe with 2k armor will still take 200 damage for. with a combat shotgun and a drum mag, no enemy in the game (that's killable) can withstand half the drum mag

the weaker a weapon is, the less useful two shot is - a weapon with like 8 base damage will get more out of the + damage stuff like freezing (which has utility use in crits can freeze foes for a while), because, again, if the gun currently has like 24 damage, two shot will still only add the original 8, while also increasing recoil quite a bit.

there's also stuff that isn't damage that can help -
a staggering shotgun will basically stunlock foes
never ending can make some somewhat unwieldy weapons more useful (i've got this radiation build where i love the lorenzo's artifact gamma guns - except gamma guns reload so damn slow)
for a crit build, both lucky (better crit damage and vats crit refill), potentially with overdrive chem to let you crit outside of vats, and relentless (crits refill action points), can be very useful, more so than just raw damage upgrade due to the crit synergy
similarly, for a vats build, vats enhanced is utterly fantastic - increased accuracy and reduced vats cost will let you tear through more foes with a single vats use, potentially getting a lot out of penetrator and gun fu, depending on perks and foes present.

and rapid, on the gatlng laser, is kinda glitched - with the charging barrels, instead of giving the normal boost, it doubles fire rate - so a high ammo capacity gun with like 5X damage for a tradeoff of slower shots (still pretty fast though) with this effect has double the fire rate, makes for an insanely effective weapon.
You left out the kneecapper legendary effect, slayer of any Deathclaw no matted the gun, the Deathclaw or the difficulty involved lol.
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(edited 2 weeks ago)
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