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User Info: APlusle

APlusle
4 weeks ago#1
This topic is made in response to this post:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/1349-/77659145?page=1#59

slaterastle posted...
My understanding is no longer clear. You'll have to forgive me, but my current view may be false. I dont mean to offend, and I'm sorry if I do.

I know you don't mean any harm by it, but there's a lot of incorrect information in here that my prior belief in set my self-acceptance back by over ten years, and those years were full of a lot of shame and guilt. There's nothing wrong with not understanding something and it's actively good to ask about it but particularly at the early stages of my moving away from those feelings the many concepts in your post can potentially be unhealthy for me when unstructured and simultaneous in their handling. There's a lot of philosophical, metaphysical, biological, social, ethical implications and more in those initially small-seeming confines. I would ask you to take what I say at face value; I am who I say I am, I cannot just not be (believe me, I would know), and while I understand it likely doesn't seem this way from the perspective of someone who hasn't experienced gender dysphoria firsthand, debating the nature of gender to such an extreme level as to call into question whether the nature of my own self and life experiences can be trusted amounts to something not so dissimilar from debating whether I exist. I am not offended by your view or your having acquired it, and I sure as hell am not offended if you're actually open to learning and changing views, which I know from experience that you are. I am, however, offended by culture in general for existing in such a way as to make you, me, and so many people believe so much of that stuff, and I will annihilate culture until there is nothing left as vengeance. So let's get started!

slaterastle posted...
According to the New Oxford Dictionary, and I'm going to write this word for word so there's not even a chance of me twisting this defintion here, the definition of female is:

adjective:

of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

From my understanding, in order to produce eggs (which to clarify means release eggs since eggs dont get created other than the ones made when the body is made, hence metapause) one must have ovaries, and humans who are born male don't have ovaries, so they are unable to be part of the female sex, physically speaking. In addition, in order to release these eggs, one needs the rest of the path to the....uh.....exit.

First of all, New Oxford can suck it. They're just words, and if their definition of female doesn't include me their definition is s***.

Second of all, ew. If womanhood is a vagina, that's sort of creepy and very objectifying. If womanhood is ovaries, that's even creepier and even more objectifying. Not all women have ovaries - for that matter, not all cis women have ovaries. That, uh... definition, there, also specifies fertility. Not nearly all cis women are fertile. Suddenly all these cisgender people are men. Or eunuchs. Do you want to tell them or should I?

As well, it's unclear by that questionable definition whether a person needs to be fertile currently to be female, or needs to at some point have been fertile to be female. If the former, all the people who have experienced the menopause you mentioned are also now outside the impenetrable gates of womanhood. If the latter, you have no reason to mention releasing the eggs and by extension no need to come so close to mentioning that vaginas exist.
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(edited 4 weeks ago)

User Info: APlusle

APlusle
4 weeks ago#2
Regardless of whether you are persuaded by anything specific here, I think I've demonstrated that looking up one of several pithy dictionary definitions is insufficient for any kind of in depth meaningful conversation about any individual gender or gender as a whole.

I was not born male, I was assigned male at birth. I know it's splitting hairs but this is the kind of conversation where hairs get split. Some women have penises, some men have vaginas.

The logical conclusion of deciding people's genders by their genitals is to refrain from perceiving anyone as a gender, as if that's something you can control, or at least from treating them as a gender, until they've stripped their pants or submitted unto you their medical records.

slaterastle posted...
Now if you're ok with physically being a male then that's fine, but then your female spirit will have to continue having the same body, so everything will keep feeling wrong. Also, the testes produce the testosterone you dont like, and the ovaries are what make oestrogen, so until that switch happens the hormones are gonna be messy. My understanding was HRT prepares for the operation to make the transition smooth, and it helps the user become accquainted with living with those hormones before the harder committment is made.

I am not physically being a male. I will have the same body no matter what. Changes to a body are possible, we are not in an era of body swapping. I will decide what feels wrong. The hormones will not be "messy" on HRT. The operation as you call it does not give you ovaries. Testes indeed produce testosterone, which is why transfemme HRT involves the regular intake of antiandrogens on top of regular intake of estrogen. Endocrinologists are typically involved in HRT, and their entire job is understanding hormones, and HRT is all that is needed for someone assigned male at birth to have hormonal levels within the healthy adult female range or for someone assigned female at birth to have hormonal levels within the healthy adult male range. Preparation for Gender Confirmation Surgery (or whatever name it's going by today) actually involves temporary discontinuation of HRT, much to the chagrin of everyone who undergoes it. HRT does not stop after GCS. GCS is typically done last or nearly last in terms of stages of transition because it's a surgery and there's a lot of implications to a surgery, it's expensive, it's often hard to get, and recovery is f***ing brutal. I won't argue against the idea that GCS is the biggest commitment, yet it would be false to say it's a hard commitment and anything else is a soft commitment. HRT leads to irreversible changes. Transmasc HRT leads to an Adam's apple, facial hair, and voice lowering, transfemme HRT leads to breast development.
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User Info: APlusle

APlusle
4 weeks ago#3
slaterastle posted...
Finally, if on the other hand everything feels correct with your physically not female and therefore male body, then how exactly are you female? Sure you identify/relate more with women than with men, I'd say other than the majority attraction aspect, different body, and fashion sense that that's true for me as well, that's the reason I'm a straight dude. But, if you dont desire to physically join them, do you really want to mentally? I know you firmly believe you do, but if so then what does that actually mean?

"Physically not female and therefore male body" is very inaccurate. Firstly, there's context - I'm female, so if a body part is mine it's female. I realize that's not helpful for a more specific discussion, but at some point it does need to be relevant. Is my ankle male or female? What makes it so? I'm breathing with my biologically female lungs right now. They're male from 2 - 6 during normal business hours, though. None of this makes sense. The only meaningful determinant of someone's gender is what they say it is, and body parts are gendered, not just sexed - I'm female, and, by extension, in some sense, so's my bepis. Again, I'm not discarding the discussion of physical differences between sexes, and I will touch on that next, but this is a subject that has serious implications for trans people (and, frankly, for people in general considering how much absurd cultural weight is arbitrarily placed on certain body parts) and needs to be addressed.
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User Info: APlusle

APlusle
4 weeks ago#4
Secondly, having physical sex characteristics that are not typically described as female does not make your body physically male. Sex, like gender, is a spectrum. Someone who has a penis and whose dominant hormone is estrogen and has been estrogen for several months will have fuller and more rapidly growing scalp hair, finer body hair, female body odor, breasts, lower muscle mass, softer skin, psychological differences, female sex drive, and female sexual fluids and sexual odor. To call their body physically not female is absurd, to call their body male against the evidence of what's in front of your eyes, or what would be in front of your eyes had you knowingly encountered such a person instead of ontologically defining their body without ever having met, talked with, or done any research on them.

I'm not sure what you mean to communicate by bringing up attraction but I can guarantee you that is not why you're a dude, and that fashion sense and relating with women are neither why you're a dude nor why you're straight. There are feminine trans women, there are masculine(/butch) cis women, there are masculine trans men, there are feminine cis men, there are feminine trans men, there are masculine(/butch) trans women, there are relatively androgynous-presenting cis and trans men and women, non-binary people exist and they present however they want. Gender expression is separate from gender is separate from sex is separate from sexual orientation. If I never did anything, I would still not be a man. I never was one. I could not just be a feminine man or a man who relates more with women because I am not a man. How do I know? I don't know. I know I can't change it. I know it's complicated as all hell with lots of theories. I know damn well I'm not a man. I know it because I never have been, I know it because I never wanted to be, I know it because I was always unhappy from the belief before thought that I had to be, I know it because every time I tried to convince myself I was my heart, mind, and soul would scream at me that something and everything was wrong, I know it because I just do. I know it because the universe shouldn't feel out of sync just because I look in the mirror and see a lump in my neck, I know it because looking at a gender "swapped" picture of myself shouldn't be the only time the universe feels like it's not out of sync after twenty-one years. I know it because I'm tired of eating coleslaw. I'm not "physically join[ing] them", the only way I'm joining anybody else is socially. I'm joining myself to who I already am. Physically, mentally, psychologically, emotionally, socially, biologically, any other not-inherently-bad adverb you can come up with, that's what I'm doing.

https://youtu.be/yCxqdhZkxCo
https://medium.com/@juliaserano/transgender-people-and-biological-sex-myths-c2a9bcdb4f4a
https://youtu.be/9bbINLWtMKI
https://youtu.be/1pTPuoGjQsI
https://youtu.be/PbBzhqJK3bg
https://youtu.be/j1dJ8whOM8E
https://youtu.be/AQPWI7cEJGs
https://youtu.be/seUVb7gbrTY

DISCLAIMER: I do not actually want to annihilate culture until there is nothing left.
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(edited 4 weeks ago)

User Info: slaterastle

slaterastle
4 weeks ago#5
Thank you for saying I'm awesome for wanting to learn and that everything's cool. Not only does that mean a lot to me, but also the fact you've trusted me with your identity and that you're willing to discuss it and put up with my lack of education as I said earlier. In other words, thanks for being a great girl.

I'm not done yet with the resources, I'm part way into the second video, but before I finish or read your post, I would like to point out the difference between biological sex and physical sex, and what my view has been the entire time on that. I'm doing this because it is being brought up a lot in the resources, and I want to clarify that I have never philosophally been in the position the transphobes mentioned are in. Granted this is prior to reading your post in this topic, but I feel I should explain anyway so you know where I was coming from.

I dont give a hootin holler 2 cents about biological sex. I know you know what that is, but I'm going to restate it to show I know what it is as well. It's sex based on what sex chromosome pair one has. Transphobic people (which I dont believe I've ever been) think if one is born a woman or man, one is a woman or man and cannot change that due to the sex chromosomes they permanently carry.

I think that'a a bunch of bull. If you ask me, all the sex chromosomes do is give instructions to the zygote as to what kind of body to make for birth. Once the baby is born, it is completely irrelevant in my mind.

Physical Sex on the other hand is based on genitals, or at least it is in my mind based on the implication of the dictionary and I'm excited to learn conversely soon. What this means is if one has testes and everything that goes along, one is physically male, and if one has ovaries and everything that goes along, one is physically female. This is regardless of breasts and the other physical aspects, it is what I was taught by my parents as a small child, and it can be changes with the surgeries of modern times, and this is great because it allows people to physically live as they mentally are, or in other words, look as they identify.

People need to identify as themselves regardless of their physical sex in order to truly live, and with this one chance on earth we're given, we must live as we believe we are because we dont have a life to spare. However, I simply wondered how one can desire to keep the genitals given at birth and yet claim they wish to physically become the opposite sex, and with that, questioned what it means to be transgender without the desire to change the physical sex of the body to match the gender of the soul. Finally, I stated that if it feels correct to be in the body of the physical sex assigned at birth, then I dont currently see where the opposite sex comes into play.

With that said, time to keep watching, read, and then truly reply. Just wanted to give an update on my progress do far I guess lol. I also see there are more videos here, so I'll watch them here rather than in the ofher topic.
(edited 4 weeks ago)

User Info: slaterastle

slaterastle
3 weeks ago#6
Ok, I've watched everything, and I'm thinking it through, but I'm going to reply with my old view in mind to address misconceptions of that old view. I'm also reading paragraph by paragraph and then writing rather than reading the whole thing up front so I can comparmentalize it all.

First off, you exist as you say you do. You're gender has always been female and I'm happy you've discovered that. And yes, in order to completely avoid harm, ideally I would be learning from someone who knows everything about this stuff and doesnt personally identify with the group I'm trying to understand, that way my views wouldnt be seen as personal attacks. However, I'm trying to understand you, and noone is better suited to teach me about you than you, and if I delay learning until the transition is complete for you and you're proudly indestructible in your idenity, I may think incorrectly for some time, and that's no good so here we are. At least there will be structure here, and I'm sorry for the past harm I caused.

So I believe, and I have the entire time, that Sex is physical and Gender is mental. When I speak in regards to physicality, I comepletely ignore mentality. Mentality is in control of the thinker, and all self identifying thoughts are beautiful in the diverse world we live in. The brain sits inside of a physical body that is given to the thinker, and while one has the power to change their physical body, one must accept the facts as to what their body is currently. In other words, I'm not challenging indenity, I challenging what I see.

I wanted to use New Oxford to argue in sake of the definition the world has given to female in regards to physical existence, and I wanted an outside source to make myself credible as taught in writing courses. It's also good to know GameFAQs doesnt sensor genital names, so euphamisms are no longer thought to be necessary. My own secret definition was vagina=girl and penis=boy in regards to the physical body and that's it, nothing to do with fertility. I would have avoided the definition I gave altogether if it didnt say or produce eggs, and I took that to mean at any point in life, so of course this includes non fertile people and people in menopause. And the thing about eunichs is they all used to have peni, so they're all still men because they've never been women even though they are missing the key ingredient.

Whether entirely true or not, I dont see what is creepy or objectifying about defining physical sex from genetalia. It what the doctors do when giving ultrasound. They look at the baby's junk, and they say "It's a boy!" or "It's a girl!" depending on if they see a penis or a vagina respectively. They are only speaking physically, gender cannot be known until the baby has matured into an adult. I have never said it's ok to indentify mental gender from physical genitals, only that it's ok to define physical sex from physical genitals. It's ok if these don't match, but mental thoughts alone do not control the sex of physical attributes. They do control the gender of the physical attributes, but when one says the physical sex of the physical attributes, including genitals, does not match the mental gender of the individual, that is not an attack on character. If gender controlled sex, there would be no difference and they would be treated synonymously which is false.

I gotta shower and eat right now, but I'm beginning to understand the spectral view of sex rather than the binary one and believe it should have it's own post. I'll return to finish this soon, I intended to now but time is not in my control.

User Info: slaterastle

slaterastle
3 weeks ago#7
I've read the rest. I think according to your own logic that I'm the only one who knows why I'm a straight man, and the fact I say so makes it true. I'm going to explain why I believe I am in more detail and my views on it not to try and deter you from your newfound true identity, but just so you can see a perspective of sex/gender that I've had in my life. Since I find your story interesting, I can only hope you feel the same about mine.

I'm not a man because I'm similar to other men. I'm not even a man because of a super masculine body. I have a higher voice, not as high as most females but high enough for it to be commented on. And I dont put energy into making it higher on purpose, it just is what it is. Both of my younger brothers are in high school have lower voices than I do. I also have very low muscle mass and have my entire life. And I'm not a fan of body hair, including facial hair, so while it does grow and I'm happy I have the freedom to grow it, shaving is annoying but I do it anyway just to "look nicer" imo. Not everywhere because I dont want to be percieved as feminine just as you dont want to be percieved as masculine, but if I entirely didnt care about that I would. Finally, I have seen other men with far more body/facial hair growth than me, so my testosterone levels definitely aren't the highest on the planet even if they are the dominant hormone.

In addition, on the whole I find my mind is happier when speaking with women than with men. Finding a male that I click with is very hard, I dont even agree with most of the views of my own male friends. In all the couples I speak to, I like the girl more than the boy. I just find women far more interesting even if I disregard the fact I find them sexy, and I have yet to run into a couple where the man is smarter than the woman.

So if my body isnt super masculine, why am I physically a man? If I'm not similar to other men and I dont like other men, why do I identify as one myself? The answer is very simple even if it only applies to me, and it's because I have male junk. I was born into the world with it, I'm not in control of it, I like my natural body even though I find female bodies more interesting, and that's it. I dont want to change bodies because my current equipment allows me the potential to enjoy the female body in ways other females can't just as I can't experience male bodies in ways females can. Sure I question why luck made me into a man just as I question the existence of everything including myself, but I have bigger things to worry about and the universe explains itself in stages so it is what it is.

If God were to come down one day and say to me "Ok I'm gender bending life. Everyone with peni will now have vaginas and vice versa. Dont worry, your current singing technique will present the same quality as a mezzo/soprano, and you will now be attracted to men only and find them interesting the way you currently find girls interesting, how do you feel about that?" I'd be fine with its effects on me. If anything, I'd rather be reborn as a woman in those conditions once I hit 50 and die once my woman body hits 50 than continue living my own life to 100 so I can have a more complete view of the world. I mean ideally I'd hit 100 both times but yeah.

I'm pretty sure that if I were attracted to men only in the capacity that I'm attracted to women that I would become a woman to enjoy them more fully. I mean, that's guessing that I'd be willing to fight through the surgery in an attempt to not be alone rather than just enjoy my own company in my body, but I think I'd do it. I've thought of the scenario "what if I gave up being a man to be alone as a woman and simply enjoyed myslef?" but then I'd be lonely and everything would be wack so I'm not doing that. Not that it's wack of others to donthe same, just that I'd feel that way personally. And it isnt wrong to think otherwise, it's just what I think I'd do.

But wait, there's more!
(edited 3 weeks ago)

User Info: slaterastle

slaterastle
3 weeks ago#8
I think what's more relevant is the fact I'm fine being anything. If I were someone who wanted to be a gay man, that'd be fine. If I were someone who wanted to have a feminine penis and play with others like myself, that'd be cool too. If I enjoyed being a cis woman, or a transmale, or if I were born into another country and enjoyed it, or if I enjoyed beingn a dolphin or an elephant or a raven, or living on another planet, or another realm where everything is upside down literally, everything would be fine even if it were different. I would just live life as that being and it'd be what I'd do. In other words, I dont feel a drive to be a straight man, I just am one in this existence for some reason I dont know. Sure, I dont want any of that other stuff for myself, but that's because I've lived the life I've lived. Without that, there'd be no reason to care because I dont look down on anything. In other words, I have my own opinions and preferences, but if they were different, that doesnt bother my current self.

Also, what does identifying as male even mean? Does it only mean identifying as part of the group of people who also identify as male? If so, what does it mean to be male? I think it means to be like the group of people who have male junk. Sure you dont need one to identify as one, but I think genitals are still the strongest defining thing of sex even if they arent the only thing. If the spectrum mainly went on hormone levels, old people who have higher levels of opposite hormones would be their physical sex less so, and I dont believe that's true.

I'm attracted to women because they are different from myself, so being with one provides me with a more complete experience on earth in my opinion. Again, it isnt best to be straight, anyone can be however they want, but that's just my opinion, I'm only including it because it's relevant to who I am. I also have a baboon code in my brain that makes me want to have sex with females who are legal and consent so I can continue the human race for some reason I dont know, so it's convenient these 2 things get along.

I think defining sex based on physical attributes besides genitals can potentially be more offensive. I mean I have smooth skin, a higher voice, a small nose, small ears with one smaller than the other, no prominent adams apple, and low muscle mass. When someone calls me female based on these attributes, whether in joke or in seriousness due to being on the phone as a stranger or being condescending, I laugh at their incorrectness of my genetalia. And it's offensive, but I get over it because I dont let things bother me.

With that said, I know it is correct to call people what makes them happpy, and people have a right to believe whatever they want to believe. And it doesnt matter, but HRT does transform bodies to be more feminine/masculine, therefore sex is on a spectrum as you said. And if one's dominant hormone is estrogen but they have a penis, that is a very masculine trait of that body just as my higher voice is less so a feminine trait even tho it is closer to the average male than female (I think haha), but that person definitely has femaleness in their physical sex. And the fact that person has the power to move their physical sex and keep their genitals at all is astonishing.

Idk if one can mostly be male or female without the correct genitals physically speaking yet, but what I have learned is that gender is more important than sex. If one wishes to mostly be female in their hearts, they shouldn't let their body get in the way, and surgery is not needed to live a physically mostly female life. And if having mostly estrogen and a penis is what's wanted, one should do what one wants and think what they want of it regardless of what it technically is.

This is the part where I ask the big question: why do you want to keep your wiener? I dont need to know beyond curisosity at this point because you're what you want to be either way but yeah.
(edited 3 weeks ago)

User Info: slaterastle

slaterastle
3 weeks ago#9
Even though I dont exactly know the exact ratio between genital weight and hormone weight in the physical sex spectrum yet, I do find the changes HRT provides to be fascinating. How does estrogen change psychology, and what differentiates female sex drive from male sex drive?

Also, I've just gained an epiphany that can't wait to be said. If the individual's body is strongly female, the gender of the individual is female, and the individual expresses herself as a female, that is more than enough for the individual to be mostly female as you are even with a penis. I dont know when I would have learned that without you, so thank you very much for helping me learn about your womanhood!

I'll also use this post to ask this: if my reasons for being a man aren't valid as you said, why do you think I'm a man? I'm not offended that you said that, I would just like to know what you think. Oh and before my time to edit runs out, Natalie Wynn is a cool youtuber, I liked those videos a lot and learned way more from them than the other ones and I find her art to be creative and thoughtful, so thanks for sharing those girl.
(edited 3 weeks ago)

User Info: APlusle

APlusle
3 weeks ago#10
Just to let you know, I intend to reply to this but I can't guarantee when. It warrants a lot of thought and effort and probably a lot of writing, time, and energy. I might take a long time.
'Official' Plusle of the SSBU board. Also, creator of that thing down in the line under this.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/997828-paper-mario/57781633