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  3. Item duping, the d3 and bl2 killer

User Info: alirock110

alirock110
4 years ago#31
Chariot_of_God posted...
alirock110 posted...
This topic is full of Righteous Indignation. Get over your selves. Gearbox don't care if we dupe that's why they haven't fixed it. I got a full time job, a kid and other stuff to do so I can't be stuck fighting the same raid boss 508747498595372 times so he could drop a rare head/skin that I'd like to have. I'm gonna dupe and ask for dupes until there aint no more dupin' left to be duped; and anyone who don't like, don't got to play with me. You enjoy your gaming experience your way and I'll enjoy it my way.


ITP: complete egocentricity and self-entitlement

You want those items without needing to put in the play time required to get them legitimately, so you rationalize that it is an okay excuse to support a system that effectively ruins a large portion of the game for many other players (the legit ones).

Oh, and you can't make the assumption that because gearbox hasn't done anything about it that they are implicitly sanctioning the behavior. Gearbox is motivated by bottom line; and permanently fixing duping is expensive (requires server side saves; which means server setup costs and maintenance costs). The more likely explanation is they aren't willing to shell out the money to fix duping, even though they don't think duping should be in the game. If they did think duping should be in the game, why do we have to exploit the games' systems in order to do it? If they were really pro duping, wouldn't they just give us an option to copy guns to other players, instead of forcing us to resort to exploits to do it? Granted, this is my interpretation and opinion, but I'm admitting that, not make my claim that it is 100% right; you'd be wise to do the same with your assertions on Gearbox's intentions.

I've seen Gearbox state they are down with creative modding; but I've never seen Gearbox say they are okay with duping; and in BL1 they fixed a couple different duping methods that popped up. Leading me to believe they at least were against it.

Sure, show me something from Gearbox saying, "Yeah, we are cool with duping and encourage it" and I'll concede this point (and start questioning my support of the company).


Oh snaps! Are you saying that you will cancel your pre order and never come to this board again if I show you something from gearbox that says "We don't care about duping."? If that's the case I will do that in my next post, but I got a feeling that you are posturing for all these "Crusaders" who want to wipe out the scourge of duping. If you are serious, let me know and I'll be more than happy to school you. If not keep your silly comments to your self and find some like minded people to play with who are just as butthurt about duping as you are. When you get a full time job, have a family and some adult responsibilities, you can try to talk down to me about how I want to spend my game time. Until than, learn a little empathy for people who's situation differs from yours. Anyone else who thinks that it's ok to dupe is more than welcome to play with me and if anyone wants to bless me with some heads/skins on day is more than welcome to do so.

User Info: Chariot_of_God

Chariot_of_God
4 years ago#32
Lmao...post it...big talker...I want verifiable official Gearbox policy saying they are cool with duping...let's see it, maybe I am wrong.

Here I'll help. This is an older post from a formerly official mod on gearbox's old site...

http://oldforums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=172893

The post states duping is a detriment to loot based games and threads about it are not tolerated on the forums...

So I'm waiting for your next post where you are going to put up...I've shown my evidence, where is yours.

PS. You still haven't addressed the fact you willfully take part in an activity that ruins a significant portion of the game for others out of completely self-entitled motivation.

Got nothing to say to that?

And don't give me the job and family B.S., you think you are alone? As adults we all have jobs and families. I'm an ABAP developer that commonly puts in 50+ hours a week for work; don't need to rationalize cheating in a game (at the expense of others); I just admit I may not have time to play every game and get every item in the games I play. Its called being an adult and understanding time management while setting realistic expectations.

Edit - Here's more evidence gearbox isn't "cool" with duping.

http://kotaku.com/5898475/the-worst-thing-players-did-in-borderlands-made-it-better

A senior producer says duping made them embarassed and they removed almost all of it with general knox expansion.

Embarassed...not very positive...

I'll wait now...happy hunting...
XBone/360: OsC Binary
PSN: OsCGunslinger

User Info: alirock110

alirock110
4 years ago#33
Man you are really narrow minded. You must be a hoot at your office parties. You should really consider what you are getting all worked up about. Fake video game guns. They are not real, they hold no value in any economy and they won't do anything to help you in the real world.

This is a loot based co op shooter. No competition at all, so my kit and my load out has no bearing on what you do if we are not playing in the same game. So if you put your settings to private you can play your way and I can play my way and we never have to interact with each other. There's no leaderboard and loot rarity is random not performance based.

So find 3 other white knights with giant sticks up their butt like yours and you will never have to worry about duping affecting you in any way. I'm pretty sure with your leet programming skills you can fix your settings and your charming personality will help make some friends who share your super narrow, non inclusive world view.

Here's my proof Gearbox don't care about duping and its coming right from the CEOs mouth.

http://sgcafe.com/2012/09/borderlands-2-an-interview-with-gearbox-software-ceo-randy-pitchford/

Also, it would’ve taken a lot of resource and attention to stop that kind of behavior, and for what? We think it’s kind of fun for some people to exploit systems. We don’t like it when players purposefully try to ruin the experience for others and we have taken pains to do a better job of making that harder to do, but we think players who are having fun with the systems are still having fun. There’s a fuzzy line there that is difficult to see, but I’m pretty certain our philosophies are right on the matter and we do our best to try to make our software and our priorities fit with our philosophies. There are always limits in time and space and human capability, but I think if I focus on our intent the right solutions tend to naturally follow.

I hope that quote opens up your eyes and shuts you white knight trap. Good day to you sir.

User Info: Chariot_of_God

Chariot_of_God
4 years ago#34
alirock110 posted...
Snip


If you think I am upset about the Items themselves, you are not listening to what anti-dupers are saying. I don't like duping because it trivializes gameplay in the public sphere when it is common. It ruins my game experience; has nothing to do with the guns themselves, it has to do with every public room being full of players using nothing but the best gear making all the fights too easy (of you can even call them fights when they are over in 1 hit).

If you don't see why someone who's hobby is gaming is upset about a significant portion of some of their favorite games being effectively ruined; then you really are egocentric and blind to others. It is an extremely simple concept to grasp, so I can only imagine you are ignoring it willfully.

And we shouldn't be forced to play provate matches only because other players can't be bothered to not cheat the systems. We enjoy running into new people who like borderlands as much as everyone else, and that is taken from us; because in reality private games with only our friends is how we cope with duping, and is exactly why we are upset about it. So you telling us to do what we already do, which being forced to do is the exact issue at hand, solves/suggests nothing.

As for your article:
1. First thing it states, technical reason for not doing it (would require always online). Second thing it states is resources required. For a question he could have said "gearbox is fine with duping", he gives reasons why they can't/won't fix it, which if you work in business means, we've examined how to deal with it, and the solutions were not feasible. Doesn't mean "we like duping".
2. Randy then gives a complete politicians response; we don't like it when people ruin other people's experiences (side 1); but people should be able to play how they want (side 2). Pandering to both sides to maximize sales. FYI, this isn't the first time I've seen that article, I just took it for what it is, a business man trying to make is product appeal to the most people be giving muddled indirect answers.

I'd like to point out he immediately does the same exact B.S. politician answer to the knoxx armoury exploit, even though during that patch the removed many duped and modded items (see my second link); so they were obviously against exploits, but this interviewer was obviously pro exploit, so Randy pandered and didn't just answer directly.

So your article is an obviously biased interviewer (pro-exploiting), asking a businessman who is actively promoting his product, questions loaded with what the interviewer (and thus his/her readership) wants the answers to be, getting inoffensive indirect answers that try to appeal to everyone. Yeah, absolutely worthless to get any sort of true company intent from that.

No, I think I'll stick to my evidence that includes them actually patching duped/modded weapons out and banning duping topics on their boards; instead of falling for what is essentially just advertising. Maybe apply a little more critical thinking before you just accept everything on the internet at face value buddy.

So, unless you have any really new thoughts, I'm done discussing this with you; We will just end up repeating our stances ad nauseam.

Take it easy.
XBone/360: OsC Binary
PSN: OsCGunslinger

User Info: alirock110

alirock110
4 years ago#35
Chariot_of_God posted...
alirock110 posted...
Snip


Not brave enough to own up to my words


Yo, Slippin' Jimmy your evidence doesn't hold up in court. They patched an exploit in BL1 and left duping in and let it stay through BL2 and TPS. So it can't be that gamebreaking, if it was, they would have fixed it by now. I'm sorry you can't find public matches where all the other players will bow down to your every whim. Here's a couple low tech solutions to fix that, keep bouncing out of lobbies until you find one that suits your finicky sensibilities or you could post in one of the numerous threads here looking for people to play with, let them know you're super anal retentive and duping is an affront to you and belittles your hobby. I'm sure that with some perseverance you will come across some people who share your views.

Sure, show me something from Gearbox saying, "Yeah, we are cool with duping and encourage it" and I'll concede this point (and start questioning my support of the company).

Those were your words, not mine. All I said Gearbox does not care and I backed my statement up in spades and how did you refute it?

Randy then gives a complete politicians response

How do you know? Aren't you doing this?

you'd be wise to do the same with your assertions on Gearbox's intentions

Again, your words not mine.

My interpretation is you are 100% wrong. The fact that duping is still in the game proves that, the fact that you find more public lobbies doing it than not proves that it is more fun than harm and I showed a statement from the top of the totem pole stating that Gearbox is aware and not all that concerned about it and yet you still won't concede your point even though you stated you would.

Sure, show me something from Gearbox saying, "Yeah, we are cool with duping and encourage it" and I'll concede this point (and start questioning my support of the company).

At the risk of sounding redundant, your words not mine. So until you're ready to concede you point, please do not continue this discussion with me. Because at this juncture, you've proven your self to be a closed minded hypocrite who talks out both sides of his mouth.

User Info: Chariot_of_God

Chariot_of_God
4 years ago#36
Lol...afraid to man up...more like character count reached, so I eliminated the chaff...people can still read the previous posts to see exactly what you said.

1. They left it in for BL2 and TPS because it would require always online or too many resources to prevent. I literally answered that in my last post. Randy did not say "Gearbox is down with duping."; he said we could have fixed it but were not willing to be always online or spend the resources for other solutions. He explicitly says this. How you can interpret that as approval of the practice just blows my mind.

2. You claimed gearbox does not care. I've claimed they have never explicitly said they do not care; so you can't make that assertion. I have in no way gone against this. I've given my reasons why I believe your interpretation of Randy's interview is fallacious and cannot be used as evidence of Gearboxes intent regarding duping; you have ignored those points.

As for the politician remark, I delineated exactly where he gave a politicians answer (hint, look for the "side #" markers, he is trying to appease both sides of the topic). I then followed it up by noting his "we are magicians" answer to the knoxx question completely avoids a direct answer; once again, a trick politicians use so they can appeal to the most people, or prevent the appearance of waffling when they finally do decide to take one stance or the other.

I'd like to add you completely ignored the point about the interviewer asking obviously loaded questions fishing for positive answers from Randy. Let's see you explain away that one. The interviewer only mentions positive perceived effects on duping, and in no way mentions the portion of the population who is unhappy with duping, thus showing bias to the pro-duping side.

Anyone point of the above being true discredits that interview as reliable evidence to a critical thinker; the fact all of them are provably true (as I have just laid out again) just goes to further call into question Randy's responses in that interview as official Gearbox policy.

And, as I stated, if anything, it means they looked at how to fix it (meaning they do care), but were not wiling to pay the costs to do so, if you actually work in project management you'd understand this is common practice. Cost benefit analysis. They decided that the cost was not worth the benefit; however, that does not say they approve of the practice or would not see a benefit to removing duping.

3. I will concede, dupers may be the majority now (definitely are in public games because many legit players just avoid public games now); that does not mean I have to bend to their will and just accept it as policy; I have just as much of a right to state my stance against duping and hope it convinces others. Majority != correct, no matter what your obviously limited world view would have you believe.

Also, once again, you make assumptions on gearbox's view on it. The only thing we know 100% based upon what has been said by gearbox is they are not willing to pay the cost. That does not mean the same thing as Gearbox is okay with duping (I repeat for the 1000th time). If you still can't see this, I don't know how else to explain it to you.

4. And I will state again, you have not posted anything to convince me that you were correct. I've explained my reasons why for your article in my last post; and like a coward you attack me instead addressing those points.

I really am done now that I have addressed these purely ad hominem points (you don't address the points I make, you just insist I am wrong without providing counter argument and attack me in your last post). Now I'm kind of glad I avoid dupers, because I know I'll never run into you in game.

If you want a real discussion, address my points (point by point) and let's move past the personal attacks (which I admit to doing as well). Then I'll pursue this topic more.
XBone/360: OsC Binary
PSN: OsCGunslinger

User Info: alirock110

alirock110
4 years ago#37
Dude, what is your deal with all these control issues? I have to refute your post point by point, I can't make personal attacks even though you just called me a coward. It's like no one can get on the dance floor and shake their money maker unless you're playing the music. No wonder your stuck hopping through public lobbies. No one likes a control freak who only likes to do things their way. You should work on that.

Please take time to reread the quote from the HEAD OF THE COMPANY. I'm going to bold and Italic the important parts so you don't have to strain your narrow thinking.

Also, it would’ve taken a lot of resource and attention to stop that kind of behavior, and for what? We think it’s kind of fun for some people to exploit systems. We don’t like it when players purposefully try to ruin the experience for others and we have taken pains to do a better job of making that harder to do, but we think players who are having fun with the systems are still having fun. There’s a fuzzy line there that is difficult to see, but I’m pretty certain our philosophies are right on the matter and we do our best to try to make our software and our priorities fit with our philosophies. There are always limits in time and space and human capability, but I think if I focus on our intent the right solutions tend to naturally follow.

Does that sound anti-dupe? There are mechanisms in place so that I can't come into your game and dupe without you being a participant. if you're in a public game and everyone beside yourself is duping, leave. It's fairly simple and straight forward. if someone comes into your game and drops a ton of oranges on the floor, kick them out and fast travel to another zone. When you get back, that stuff will be gone.

You use ten dollar words like someone who's educated but act like you've never interacted with other people. People are going to do what feels right for them. Don't get so worked up about it. Randy isn't. If he was, there wouldn't be duping. Here's the bottom line if Gearbox is worried that duping would hurt their franchise and affected their bottom line it would be fixed. But since it's not, I'm going to assume they are not worried about it. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? Linear thinking, be about it.

User Info: Chariot_of_God

Chariot_of_God
4 years ago#38
alirock110 posted...
freeing up space to type


Immediately with the personal attacks. FYI - I just responded to your attitude with your original post in this thread. You set the tone guy. Yes, I shouldn't have played tit for tat, but you shouldn't have come in to the thread with the attitude you did. There was legitimate and friendly discussion until you joined in. So, look in the mirror buddy.

Second, I've read that article many times and that quote many times. You think you are breaking ground in this conversation? That this hasn't all be hashed out a million times before?

That article is full of reasons one should not take at Gearbox's official stance, as I have already pointed out. I don't care if it was Randy, the head of gearbox, he was trying to sell his game. He is responsible to his stakeholders for the performance of the business, which requires the game to sell. He will say whatever it takes to make the most people buy his games (indirect in offensive answers trying to appease everyone on these topics).

Also consider, Randy is the same guy who stated TPS will never be on the next gen systems when he needed to sell previous gen copies of the game. That whole article is suspect. See the following: http://gamerant.com/borderlands-pre-sequel-next-gen-explained/

Randy is a CEO, he is a business man; the article you are using to say Gearbox feels one way or the other is hands down an advertisement, nothing more. There are enough hints in it that they attempted to address the duping problem and realized it wouldn't be fiscally prudent. It doesn't take rocket science to see that in what he says.

P.S. I like how you don't bold the part about how they admit it would have taken too many resources (which has been my point as the driving factor) to implement a solution for it. You also don't include the first paragraph where he flat out states lack of always online is the motivating factor for not dealing with it.

Love the attack on the vocabulary too. Real classy.

Also your bottom line interpretation seems faulty to me; all you can say is Gearbox doesn't think it is worth the cost to fix; that does not mean they are cool with it. That simply means they aren't willing to pay for it. Please understand that nuance of meaning; because I believe this is where our true disconnect on this issue lies.
XBone/360: OsC Binary
PSN: OsCGunslinger

User Info: DoctorKoolMan

DoctorKoolMan
4 years ago#39
QueezZeenart posted...
Play with friends only, or play alone. Problem solved.


i dont get why people think they are outsmarting the issue

the issue is duping breaks the in game economy

this goes for everyone trying to justify its existence in this topic and in general. I know most of you have seen people bring this up, and no one can give a reason why its ok to ruin it for everyone

personally I make the best of a bad scenario and do some PC modding once Ive had my fill thru the game, Id much prefer an actual economy, which is how the game is set up with all their trading stuff

its a problem that cant be addressed without making game saves server-side like how destiny does it

for those of us who want a legit experience you can try and find a small group of people to play with who dont cheat and make your own small economy, best we can do with what they give us
Games Playing: Destiny, Far Cry 4, GTA V, MK8, SSB4, and Smite
Exotics Missing: Monte Carlo

User Info: Chariot_of_God

Chariot_of_God
4 years ago#40
DoctorKoolMan posted...
QueezZeenart posted...
Play with friends only, or play alone. Problem solved.


i dont get why people think they are outsmarting the issue

the issue is duping breaks the in game economy

this goes for everyone trying to justify its existence in this topic and in general. I know most of you have seen people bring this up, and no one can give a reason why its ok to ruin it for everyone

personally I make the best of a bad scenario and do some PC modding once Ive had my fill thru the game, Id much prefer an actual economy, which is how the game is set up with all their trading stuff

its a problem that cant be addressed without making game saves server-side like how destiny does it

for those of us who want a legit experience you can try and find a small group of people to play with who dont cheat and make your own small economy, best we can do with what they give us


Exactly. Not to mention the trivialization of the game's fights due to over abundance of top end gear.

I've been trying to explain, perhaps not well, since it has been included in other parts of the thread; that yes, we can operate in our own little legit communities and just use private games, to cope with the current system. But that doesn't mean we need to be happy about it and not voice our opinion. Being forced to play like this because of dupers is exactly the problem we are upset about.
XBone/360: OsC Binary
PSN: OsCGunslinger
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