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  3. Chapter 24 Revelation is really considered hard/annoying?

User Info: DullahansXMark

DullahansXMark
3 years ago#1
I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure on Hard or Lunatic it could be quite difficult, but what else would you expect from the harder difficulties? On Normal it's smooth sailing.

And yes, I got the Boots. Took me three tries. First try was to get a feel for the mechanics of the chapter, the second try ended in a failure because I opened the last door with Kaze and he got swarmed by ninjas and axe/bow users, and then the third time I got it without a hitch (got Locktouch on my guy and opened the door with him instead. Kaze A-rank FTW). I mean, sure, I knew about the door at the end ahead of time, but even if I didn't, that's what, one more attempt? On a map that takes all of five minutes?

Alright, you know what you do? It's as simple as four easy steps.

1. use Boots on yourself. I mean, come on, you're playing Revelation, you should have at least two pairs by this point. Who else would you use them on besides yourself? I mean, maybe Takumi? So he gets one pair and you get the other. Done deal, easy peasy.

2. if you didn't pick Ninja as your talent, A-rank Kaze or Kagero and get Locktouch off of one of them via Friendship Seal. Then go back to what you were doing before.

3. bring only yourself and either Kaze or Xander (assuming they're in their promoted/default classes) and pair them up with you. This will boost your Movement to 8 along with the Boots as well as give decent boosts to either Speed or Defense, respectively. Probably best to go for Defense, but it's up to you.

4. have that pink s*** on (press the X button) and don't be in the enemy's range on the enemy phase. That's it. That's all you have to do to avoid detection. And since they only have a movement range of 5 and you have a movement range of 8, you can easily outpace them and zip around with ease. You can even get the four chests in the area if you want! But it's up to you, their contents are only variably useful anyway.

5. that's right, bonus step #5! Face an army of ninjas beyond the final (blue) door! Seriously, pick the blue door. And get ready for ninjas. As well as a Priestess with an S-rank bow. What's wrong with your Defense? Why can't you tank that s***? Did you drop your Dragonstone+ somewhere? Did you leave Alpha Yato at home? Can't use Waterwheel or a Guard Naginata either? Come on, I know you're better than this! (P.S. Spear Master is the best class in the game. Waterwheel OP, help me, I can't take damage) Just kill that boss and get out of there, it's not that hard!

And boom, congratulations! You just broke even on Boots! Wow, "thank you Mark-senpai", am I right? EXCEPT MY NAME'S NOT ACTUALLY MARK!!!

Okay, so unnecessary hype and condescension aside, it really isn't that difficult or otherwise painful. I mean, it'll take a few tries, but I think that's accounted for by it being a short chapter in general. By the time you take those multiple attempts it'll have taken the length of a normal chapter, if that. I actually thought it was a neat chapter, but maybe that's just me. I just wish that last room didn't have all those enemies swarm you so suddenly. That's my only real complaint. The actual stealth is okay.
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User Info: Devil_Killer_JC

Devil_Killer_JC
3 years ago#2
DullahansXMark posted...
3. bring only yourself and either Kaze or Xander (assuming they're in their promoted/default classes) and pair them up with you. This will boost your Movement to 8 along with the Boots as well as give decent boosts to either Speed or Defense, respectively. Probably best to go for Defense, but it's up to you.


This isn't necessary. You can bring a full team, just keep everybody out of the enemy attack range. It's not really hard to do so, so long as your team is paired up with someone that boosts movement and you don't get impatient.
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User Info: apolloflameowns

apolloflameowns
3 years ago#3
>plays on normal
>criticizes a map for being too easy

Mfw
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User Info: soma2035

soma2035
3 years ago#4
It's not hard. It's stupid. There's a difference.

The game doesn't tell you that you get a reward if you play it via stealth. It doesn't even tell you that you missed a reward if you went through the chapter normally.

The game doesn't tell you how stealth works, either. I personally came into this game straight from playing Majora's Mask, so when the game didn't clarify, my first guess was that enemies simply spot anyone in their path.

The game also doesn't show you the paths that the enemies take. Either you spend tons of turns shuffling around while charting each enemy's path and where the safe spots are, or you get incredibly lucky, or you get tripped up because the third room's enemies follow completely nonsensical routes.

Then, to wrap things up neatly, the game lies to you about the last set of doors. You're supposed to guess, without any real indication, that the game gave you the correct answer twice before lying to you.

Actually, I lied. There's one more bit of stupidity, which is that on Lunatic mode, the enemies in the last room can easily insta-gib you if you're low-manning and not grinding, like you suggested.

This chapter is a long string of cheap tricks meant to punish players who haven't looked it up or played it before. That's exactly the opposite of what an SRPG should strive for, since the strategic aspects of this map are basically nonexistent. Once you've seen all the maps tricks, you're pretty much never going to lose again, because the only way it can beat you is you screwing up horribly or not knowing what's coming.
To right the countless wrongs of our day, we shine this light of true redemption,that this place may become as paradise. What a wonderful world such would be...

User Info: astrophys

astrophys
3 years ago#5
The person guiding you mentions that you can avoid the guards and they haven't noticed you yet… that's pretty obviously setting it up as an optional objective, and there often are rewards for optional objectives (like saving villagers in other maps like Sophie's paralogue, or in this case stealth).

The game doesn't tell how the stealth works. Yes, this a problem. However, if you misunderstand, you'll probably end up failing on the first turn or so, so you won't lose much time and you'll catch onto how you have to be out of range after their movement on the enemy phase too. It SHOULD have told you more, but its easy to figure out.

The enemies tend to move to corners and turns in the path, although there is an odd case or two as exceptions to this. Still generally easy to figure out if you're paying attention.

The lie should be expected. Firstly, the pre-battle scenes quite clearly state that its always blue; Mikoto is suspicious when she changes her mind for the final time when she suddenly says go red, as she had said always blue before. Secondly, Mikoto has been resurrected by Anankos, and everyone else you've met before inside this kingdom, including those resurrected like Arete and Scarlet, as well as the guy you encounter early on, Anthony, are all working for Anakos and trying to kill you. After Arete fighting against you and Anthony working for Anakos all along, it should have been incredibly obvious that Mikoto was going to attempt to lure you into a trap.

User Info: DullahansXMark

DullahansXMark
3 years ago#6
apolloflameowns posted...
>plays on normal
>criticizes a map for being too easy

Mfw


I didn't criticize the map at all. In fact I only really complimented it except for one point. I was just surprised that people found the stealth element (which I highly doubt is different on higher difficulties) to be as ridiculous as they say it is.

mfw people misread my posts.

astrophys posted...
The person guiding you mentions that you can avoid the guards and they haven't noticed you yet… that's pretty obviously setting it up as an optional objective, and there often are rewards for optional objectives (like saving villagers in other maps like Sophie's paralogue, or in this case stealth).

The game doesn't tell how the stealth works. Yes, this a problem. However, if you misunderstand, you'll probably end up failing on the first turn or so, so you won't lose much time and you'll catch onto how you have to be out of range after their movement on the enemy phase too. It SHOULD have told you more, but its easy to figure out.

The enemies tend to move to corners and turns in the path, although there is an odd case or two as exceptions to this. Still generally easy to figure out if you're paying attention.

The lie should be expected. Firstly, the pre-battle scenes quite clearly state that its always blue; Mikoto is suspicious when she changes her mind for the final time when she suddenly says go red, as she had said always blue before. Secondly, Mikoto has been resurrected by Anankos, and everyone else you've met before inside this kingdom, including those resurrected like Arete and Scarlet, as well as the guy you encounter early on, Anthony, are all working for Anakos and trying to kill you. After Arete fighting against you and Anthony working for Anakos all along, it should have been incredibly obvious that Mikoto was going to attempt to lure you into a trap.


Thank you for this. The only knowledge I had about the map prior to going into it was:
1. that it was a stealth chapter
2. you get rewards for not getting caught
3. don't pick the red door

I had to figure out the stealth mechanics all on my own. Still only took me one try to really get it pinned down (and that was for the sake of experimentation). And it's as you said, the game explicitly tells you there's an optional objective. To really drive that point home the enemies are all tier 1, meaning killing them is extremely easy. Meaning, maybe killing them penalizes you. It's so obvious that there's going to be rewards for it.

As for the lie... I could see how that could throw someone off, but yeah, the way she said "pick the red door" did seem rather suspicious. And even if you did fall for it, so what? It takes all of five minutes once you know the path to take.
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User Info: leadintea

leadintea
3 years ago#7
I thought it was a pretty easy chapter. It took me a couple of retries to understand how the map worked, but once I did it wasn't as bad as people made it out to be.
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User Info: DullahansXMark

DullahansXMark
3 years ago#8
leadintea posted...
I thought it was a pretty easy chapter. It took me a couple of retries to understand how the map worked, but once I did it wasn't as bad as people made it out to be.


Yeah, see? Glad the people that think so are speaking up about it.

I just wonder what these people thought of Xenoblade Chronicles X, if they played it. Probably the most hardcore open world stealth RPG released ever. Way more extreme than this.

What do you mean, "XCX isn't a stealth game?"
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User Info: TehTrumpCard

TehTrumpCard
3 years ago#9
DullahansXMark posted...
leadintea posted...
I thought it was a pretty easy chapter. It took me a couple of retries to understand how the map worked, but once I did it wasn't as bad as people made it out to be.


Yeah, see? Glad the people that think so are speaking up about it.


In a game that goes out of it's way to throughly explain the gimmicks and rewards any other time, it makes zero sense that they choose not to for just this one chapter. This problem never comes up before or after this. it's just this one chapter.

In a turn-based game, stealth elements/severe punishment as demonstrated in this chapter has no business being there. Obviously the game can't tell you their path but it's not like I get to see their path of movement like in say... Frozen Synapse Prime. It feels very poorly executed here because the mechanics don't compliment that type of gameplay. This is also the only chapter of the game where the AI doesn't use the maximum number of spaces per move to get in range of units which furthers the issue of how annoying it is.

Just because it was easy for you doesn't mean it isn't flawed/problematic.


I just wonder what these people thought of Xenoblade Chronicles X, if they played it. Probably the most hardcore open world stealth RPG released ever. Way more extreme than this.

What do you mean, "XCX isn't a stealth game?"



XCX is the most painfully average game ever. I'm glad Zero Punctation put that overhyped mediocrity on blast. No, it's not clever when Lv.60 monsters attack me during a level 20 mission without any aggro and it's faster to die than it is to exit combat. There is no postgame because it's just abusing broken builds (or no-lifing to make non-optimal builds as certain XCX board members love doing) to take on boss who've been available since the start of the game.

It took almost a month or more to beat a global nemesis because the (high-leveled) playerbase didn't exist.

Why can enemies reach higher levels than the cast? Why are Level 50 skells rendered moot by the time they're available? Why does the devs think it's okay to dump a f*** ton of exposition (I should've had 6-8 chapters ago) in the last 15-20 minutes of the game? Why are postgame rewards "fanservice" Xeno Elma's armor? Why does the bestiary not go beyond telling you what continent something is located on? Why is it that the "DLC" characters look like generic NPCs? Why is it that Mia (the world's cutest kouhai) has one of the worst unlock requirements/questlines I've ever experienced (since FFX's Celestial Weapons)? Why is Cauldros so boring design-wise when everything leading up to it looked amazing?
Because f*** you that's why.

(No I'm not going to touch the censorship issues because I could be writing another paragraph on why Nintendo is against flat-chested and big-breasted adult women but are okay with muscular men.)
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User Info: soma2035

soma2035
3 years ago#10
astrophys posted...
-snip-


1) This isn't analogous to missions where you save NPCs, because in those missions, the story dialogue indicates that saving the NPCs is your objective, even if that's not your in-game mission objective. Sophie's paralogue comes to mind, where Sophie joins the battle specifically to protect the villagers. Another example would be the early Fire Emblem Awakening paralogue where you're trying to save villagers turned away from the village. Even if that's not the mission objective, that's the goal of the mission given by the narrative.

Chapter 24 Revelation is most analogous to Chapter 8 Conquest. You're told that reaching the villages first may avoid a fight. When you reach the villages, the enemy can no longer generate reinforcements from that village. The implied benefit is very clear - avoid fighting. However, Chapter 8 Conquest also explicitly tells you at the start of the mission, in a separate popup, that reaching 3/5 villages gives you a reward at the end of the chapter. This exists specifically to keep the player from misconstruing the sub-objective's intent as a trade-off between avoiding unnecessary fighting and gaining extra experience. In contrast, Chapter 24 Revelation gives you no such warning. I know one person IRL who thought it was a choice between an easier mission with lower turn count versus more XP. I would have thought the same thing myself, especially after how crystal clear Chapter 8 Conquest was, except for the fact I looked it up online. This is not good design.

2) With regards to how stealth works and what the enemy patterns are, being able to easily "figure it out" does not address the problem. This is a strategy game, and it's impossible to formulate a strategy until you know the rules. It should not be a trial-and-error game to figure out said rules. Imagine if all enemy stats were invisible. Does it actually make the game harder? No, not really. It just means you have to figure out their stats and how much damage you do vs. how much damage they do before you can actually play. It adds resets and wastes time. Same goes for this maps mechanics.

3) The fact that she might be lying does not address the problem. The problem is that she is the only source of direction you have. There's no reason to trust her in the first place, yet you're obviously supposed to do so to proceed since she tells you the truth initially and for the first two doors. There's no change in tone or dialogue as you pass the second door, either. My first guess was that she was lying all along. The only reason I didn't open the first red door was that my IRL friend told me that it's blue all three doors.
To right the countless wrongs of our day, we shine this light of true redemption,that this place may become as paradise. What a wonderful world such would be...
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