Apparently I do not understand ATK Soft Cap. Please explain.

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  3. Apparently I do not understand ATK Soft Cap. Please explain.

User Info: eX Calmune

eX Calmune
2 months ago#11
Obviously it is relevant because using it after OK is lowering his damage.
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User Info: ffrkowaway

ffrkowaway
2 months ago#12
Yes, Death Throes overwrites the OK PUSB 50% in the second scenario, which is why shadestreet reported the different ATK numbers above.

I've added some more info in my post above to show how everything is working as expected

User Info: ShinUltima

ShinUltima
2 months ago#13
Just use Memento Mori instead of Death Throes if you're worried about turn order. You still get the Doom counter and won't overwrite OK USB.
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User Info: Dmonrei

Dmonrei
2 months ago#14
@ffrkowaway posted...
Assuming no buff cap issues, ATK past the soft cap can be treated like bonus damage, with the rule of thumb being % over soft cap/2 = bonus damage amount.

So if you do the math on 1230 ATK vs. 1067 ATK, you'll see an 8% drop is basically what should be expected. It's why stacking a 50% ATK on top of OK BSB is roughly equivalent to setting crit rate to to 50%.

As an example, all BSBs come with 20% ATK as part of burst mode, and thus, if already at or above soft cap, all BSBs increase physical damage by about 10% just from the burst mode. Assuming no buff cap issues.

Here's the math on 1230 ATK vs. 1067 ATK:

1230 ATK is about 53% above the soft cap, which should lead to about 26% bonus damage.

1067 ATK is about 33% above the soft cap, which should lead to about 16% bonus damage.

So you can see there's about 10 percentage points difference between the bonus damage in those two scenarios, right in line with the difference you saw.

This is interesting. The long held general belief is that at above soft cap we'll see a minimal gain of 1~3%, so overbuffing was never recommended. In hindsight, that belief has started way back when hitting 1k atk wasn't realistic without going overboard, so it makes sense that the "minimal gain" may not be so minimal anymore.

@eX Calmune posted...
Obviously it is relevant because using it after OK is lowering his damage.

The main issue is that the long held belief is that at above soft cap the damage gained was minimal, under the previous knowledge the 20% higher buff OK gave was irrelevant, hence the post. If what ffrkowaway posted is correct, then the general knowledge most keepers are familiar with is now obsolete.

Edit: removed the ShinUltima reply, I'm stupid.
Proud member of the Orange Chicken Club (OCC) and GFJrA

User Info: shadestreet

shadestreet
2 months ago#15
ffrkowaway posted...
Assuming no buff cap issues, ATK past the soft cap can be treated like bonus damage, with the rule of thumb being % over soft cap/2 = bonus damage amount.

So if you do the math on 1230 ATK vs. 1067 ATK, you'll see an 8% drop is basically what should be expected. It's why stacking a 50% ATK on top of OK BSB is roughly equivalent to setting crit rate to to 50%.

As an example, all BSBs come with 20% ATK as part of burst mode, and thus, if already at or above soft cap, all BSBs increase physical damage by about 10% just from the burst mode. Assuming no buff cap issues.

Here's the math on 1230 ATK vs. 1067 ATK:

1230 ATK is about 53% above the soft cap, which should lead to about 26% bonus damage.

1067 ATK is about 33% above the soft cap, which should lead to about 16% bonus damage.

So you can see there's about 10 percentage points difference between the bonus damage in those two scenarios, right in line with the difference you saw.


Fantastic. Thank you as always for the detailed information.

Everything I believed is a lie.

User Info: ffrkowaway

ffrkowaway
2 months ago#16
Yep, that's another reason why TGC USB is so OP (any problems with it mostly stem from the sad state of physical abilities versus magical abilities, which only get worse as DeNA continues to increase enemy DEF more than RES) -- that 50% ATK boost is going to be at least 25% bonus damage*, on top of the 100% crit rate.

*It's really more like 22.5%... but the rule of thumb of dividing by two is so easy, I don't worry about the slight inaccuracy, or just knock the bonus damage down by a percentage point or two.

There's a nice table in this reddit post after you scroll down a bit, under the "Buffs & Stat Boost RM and LM" section:
https://www.reddit.com/r/FFRecordKeeper/comments/7utpqb/guide_all_about_offensive_boost/

---------

Now, there's also the buff cap, which is its own thing. Two stacking 50% ATK boost put you at a total ATK buff of 1.5 x 1.5 = 2.25. The ATK buff cap has a soft limit of 2.5, and a hard limit of 3.0. This math I'm much more fuzzy about, but there's really not much point in pushing the total buff above 2.5.

User Info: Relm_Arrowny_87

Relm_Arrowny_87
2 months ago#17
ffrkowaway posted...

Now, there's also the buff cap, which is its own thing. Two stacking 50% ATK boost put you at a total ATK buff of 1.5 x 1.5 = 2.25. The ATK buff cap has a soft limit of 2.5, and a hard limit of 3.0. This math I'm much more fuzzy about, but there's really not much point in pushing the total buff above 2.5.

For what it's worth, the buff soft cap is a lot less forgiving than the ATK and MAG soft caps. So there's very little point in going over a 2.5x buff multiplier.

The formula is 2.5+0.3ln(1+x-2.5), when you have a total multipler of x. For anyone that doesn't understand that, well, let's just say that logarithmic functions are kinda mean. You'd need a raw multiplier of ~6.79 just to reach the hard limit of 3.0.
What a fuddy duddy.

User Info: ffrkowaway

ffrkowaway
2 months ago#18
Relm_Arrowny_87 posted...
ffrkowaway posted...

Now, there's also the buff cap, which is its own thing. Two stacking 50% ATK boost put you at a total ATK buff of 1.5 x 1.5 = 2.25. The ATK buff cap has a soft limit of 2.5, and a hard limit of 3.0. This math I'm much more fuzzy about, but there's really not much point in pushing the total buff above 2.5.

For what it's worth, the buff soft cap is a lot less forgiving than the ATK and MAG soft caps. So there's very little point in going over a 2.5x buff multiplier.

The formula is 2.5+0.3ln(1+x-2.5), when you have a total multipler of x. For anyone that doesn't understand that, well, let's just say that logarithmic functions are kinda mean. You'd need a raw multiplier of ~6.79 just to reach the hard limit of 3.0.

Indeed. One upon a time I was going to incorporate that in my spreadsheet... But ultimately didn't bother because lolgarithmic scaling.

User Info: Ultimaphazon

Ultimaphazon
2 months ago#19
Keepers have hated on overbuffing for a very long time.

People would recommend bringing an Imperil to a magicite fight (1.7/1.5 is roughly 13% more damage), and in the same breath call a +30% Atk buff on top of Shout (not quite 15% more damage) a waste.
Not changing this sig until Caius Ballad is released in FFRK.

User Info: Laj_1

Laj_1
2 months ago#20
@ffrkowaway is the magical side of things calculated the same, regarding magic above soft cap being bonus damage?
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